New safety seat introduced for Rally Japan

[flatOVERcrest]

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=3051&desc=New%20safety%20seat%20introduced%20for%20Rall y%20Japan

[Doug Woods]

Alex:

What seat do you use?

[AlanPerry]

Did Pivato have one of these seats in his car at Japan?

[flatOVERcrest]

Did Pivato have one of these seats in his car at Japan?

Alan, I'm not sure. By looking at the pictures (it's online, I just don't want to post it as I think it's inappropriate) I think Patrick is very lucky to be alive. Whatever they hit, "ate" the bottom side of the car almost to the center tunnel..
Sickening.

[flatOVERcrest]

Alex:

What seat do you use?

http://www.on-trackperformance.com/pro_racer_hans.jpg

[Morison]

One thing that I think is often missed when talking about seats is having a proper fitting seat.
After Oregon this year, Norm replaced his seat with one that fit him tighter to prevent sideways motion in a side impact accident.
As a codriver who sometimes 'rides around' I know that seat fitment is a typical discussion I have. It stemmed from arriving to a seat that I couldn't get into, but I know I have seen people in seats that are obviously too big for them.

[AlanPerry]

Alan, I'm not sure. By looking at the pictures (it's online, I just don't want to post it as I think it's inappropriate) I think Patrick is very lucky to be alive. Whatever they hit, "ate" the bottom side of the car almost to the center tunnel..
Sickening.


It looks like it was a post that held a cable barrier in place, about mid-thigh high and maybe six inches diameter.

The WRC.com release says that the new seat can take a 100g side impact without serious injury. If Pivato's seat was a new seat, then I am wondering if this is a "back to the drawing board" moment.

[Mark Holden]

It looks like it was a post that held a cable barrier in place, about mid-thigh high and maybe six inches diameter.

The WRC.com release says that the new seat can take a 100g side impact without serious injury. If Pivato's seat was a new seat, then I am wondering if this is a "back to the drawing board" moment.

I don't think you can blame the seat in a crash like this that has such heavy intrusion into the cabin. The seat may have done it's job perfectly, but when that post physically came through the side of the car and into his legs, that's what did the damage, not the G-forces of the impact.

That's a tough one, as the height (and strength) of the post really made for an extremely concentrated impact. It looked like the post may have been short enough that only a sill bar would have been in the way, not the full set of door bars. 1 roll car cage bar vs. a 6" steel post? That's not going to be good no matter how you look at it.

[flatOVERcrest]

One thing that I think is often missed when talking about seats is having a proper fitting seat.
After Oregon this year, Norm replaced his seat with one that fit him tighter to prevent sideways motion in a side impact accident.
As a codriver who sometimes 'rides around' I know that seat fitment is a typical discussion I have. It stemmed from arriving to a seat that I couldn't get into, but I know I have seen people in seats that are obviously too big for them.

That's a very good point. Should I switch from a steady ride to a "driver to driver" deal or simply a different team in the future, I would seriously consider just buying my own seat that fits me perfectly (the Recaro I mentioned above) and just ship it to the teams/drivers few days prior to events or everytime I change ride.
Problem is that today cages are so "busy" and complicated and cars are getting overall smaller inside, that can be really hard (or sometimes impossible) to fit particular seats at ideal seating positions.

[flatOVERcrest]

The WRC.com release says that the new seat can take a 100g side impact without serious injury. If Pivato's seat was a new seat, then I am wondering if this is a "back to the drawing board" moment.

I really don't know.., but like Mark mentions, the Duval/Pivato accident was something pretty unique, the codriver was going to get hurt not matter what seat he was on. It was intrusion of a totally un-movable object, way into the cockpit.
Very unfortunate.

[gdb]

Does anyone have any info or understand the principles of these seats? There is mention of them with vague reference to energy absorption...

Also, same thing with the side impact devices - i haven't been able to find specifics of the devices or principles. Maybe i'm just not looking in the right places...

The third question i have is whether the FIA Institute designs are available to competitors or constuctors, or whether their developments are somehow proprietary. If one were interested, as a competitor or small fabricator in, say, North America, could you gain access to their info?

Graham
Calgary, AB.

[Carl S]

Check out the short video on the rally finland's opening page: http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/en/
Theres a quick incar shot with some funky head wing action going on.

[AlanPerry]

I don't think you can blame the seat in a crash like this that has such heavy intrusion into the cabin. The seat may have done it's job perfectly, but when that post physically came through the side of the car and into his legs, that's what did the damage, not the G-forces of the impact.


I wasn't blaming anything.

I was suggesting that, if Pivato was using the new seat (and that is an 'if'), then it may not have passed the 100g test in practice. Or, maybe it was more than 100g. It was a sudden stop that could possibly could have exceeded 100g (it looks like it hit the post and then bounced back a meter or so). Or, the 100g test was just a test of whether the seat and mountings would stay intact in a 100g impact and wasn't concerned with seat deformation.

The thing is, it was the Michael Park accident that got this seat and side impact thing going and, as far as cockpit intrusion, the Pivato accident wasn't that different from the Park accident (happily, the outcome was different).



That's a tough one, as the height (and strength) of the post really made for an extremely concentrated impact. It looked like the post may have been short enough that only a sill bar would have been in the way, not the full set of door bars. 1 roll car cage bar vs. a 6" steel post? That's not going to be good no matter how you look at it.


Not sure what you have seen for reference on the post. If you get a torrent of Day 1 of the Rally Japan coverage, go about 19:30 in. The height of the post appears to be a bit lower than the top of the door. It seems to have struck the door hinge area or a bit further back and then went in and back. It wasn't high enough that the A-pillar bar did anything.

Anyway, I am certain that the FIA Safety guys are looking at the impact and evaluating how the new seat and the 200mm crush area would have performed in the same situation.

BTW, I don't look at this stuff so closely because I am morbid or anything. I just like to understand how things fail.

[P.Moro]

don't look at the seat, but look closely at the sill. Some teams open them up and remove metal to make the car light.

[xlr8motorsport]

It is my understanding that the Stobart car as an M2 entry did not have the seat, It was only a stipulation for the M1 cars for Japan and I believe M2 cars from Rally GB.

This MAY have been down to availability of the seats as I have read elsewhere that they are very recently produced and supplies are limited.


The seat that Alex uses is the best seat on the market bar none in my opinion, I have used one in every car this year with the exception of an 03 Focus as the wings foul on the cage so its not suitable in that car- but the comfort and safety it offers gives me the confidence to do a better job I feel.

I know one Irish co driver he has such a seat and as Alex suggests he in fact does move it from car to car and with a bit of perseverance he gets it to fit almost every time.

[Do It Sidewayz]

IThat's a tough one, as the height (and strength) of the post really made for an extremely concentrated impact. It looked like the post may have been short enough that only a sill bar would have been in the way, not the full set of door bars. 1 roll car cage bar vs. a 6" steel post? That's not going to be good no matter how you look at it.


I'm not sure i've ever actually seen a "sill bar" in an FIA cage kit, or a WRC car.

[Mark Holden]

I'm not sure i've ever actually seen a "sill bar" in an FIA cage kit, or a WRC car.

I agree with you there, I don't think I've seen one either. I was just noting this on a cage being done in an STi locally and thinking it seemed odd to me.

It looked to me from the video I saw, that the post they hit was shorter than the bottom of the window, and the impact was forward of the seat, or right at the very front of the seat. I just don't think that this was any kind of test of what a seat can and cannot do (regardless of whether he had the new or old seat). If the hit was back 12"-24" then the seat would have come into play.

Around here (MN) we don't see a lot of posts like that alongside the roads we rally on, but you see a lot of tree stumps of similar size. I think I'd want a sill bar, myself.

[Morison]

I agree with you there, I don't think I've seen one either. I was just noting this on a cage being done in an STi locally and thinking it seemed odd to me.
There is a reality that in many ways you don't want to over strengthen the cage or shell. Sill / floorpan deformation can be an efficient took in dispersing energy in a big accident. While you can't possibly protect against everything, I would have concerns with adding members because they look of feel right when engineers have spent time on the FIA cage designs.