Opinion on night stages.

[flatOVERcrest]

As the title states. What's the general opinion on the safety of night stages?
Racing, working and spectating an event at night is something very unique. Is it also safe enough?
Thanks.

[Doug Woods]

Well, in the "old" days, we almost always ran rallies through the night.

Only once in a while would we run stages in daylight and then they were usually in the very early morning when the locals were still off the roads.

The main reason for night stages was to allow us to be on the roads when the locals were likely not there.

However, what we did 30 or 40 years ago is probably not applicable today. Roads that we used to use were deserted, no habitations. If you drive down the same roads today you will find nice new houses out in the woods. There are stages at Tall Pines that were dirt trails with grass gowing in the middle in the 1970s that now have dozens of modern homes.

Many of today's competitors have never driven a through the night stage rally. If suitable roads could be used, I think that everyone involved (both drivers and workers) would enjoy the experience.

However, I have become a spoiled spectator and I absolutely hate watching night stages. Much more fun to relax in the bar than try to catch the last night stages of the day.

Doug Woods

Two classes only: AWD and 2WD.

[flatOVERcrest]

Well, in the "old" days, we almost always ran rallies through the night.

The main reason for night stages was to allow us to be on the roads when the locals were likely not there.

However, what we did 30 or 40 years ago is probably not applicable today.
Doug Woods


Doug, same here, in the early 90s when I started, the regional events used to start at 11pm and finish at ~10:30am. It was an amazing experience.
A bit off topic:
Also, we purposely did the recce at night, as we could do it with the rally car, at race speed, full pods etc. and it was safer (we thought..) that way in case of opposite traffic incoming.
Now the crazy part was when we did a faster time during the last recce pass (we used to do around 5 pass per stage) of a particular stage, than on race day.
On some events, the amount of spectators during the recce was equal as during the race.
Today is just a bit different... (back on topic)

Below, pic of recce, 1992 circa.
http://www.alexgelsomino.com/images/images_for_gallery/maremonti93.jpg

[Phlyan Pan]

I voted unsure...but what I really wanted to vote was "It's possible that rescue operations could be hampered, but it's also possible that other aspects of the rally's safety could be impacted in a posative way and could outweigh the negatives. And I don't have enough experience with night stages to know.

[Mad Mike]

Other than the reasons mentioned (or inferred) above (lower traffic/better chance for an event flying largely under the radar) the reason we raced mostly at night in the old days was FOR safety. The glow of oncoming headlights (whether from a civilian machine or an errant rally car) is a FAR more certain indicator that things are amiss onstage than anything we're doing right now. Woolf and Whittaker would likely have avoided their fatal shunt at Chisum 1982 had that stage run at night (the respective drivers would have seen each other's headlights and known there was oncoming traffic long before the Peugeot topped the crest that blinded John to the stage incursion).

To me it seems a pretty simple function to brain out how we can make rally safer in this era of stage incursion concerns (whether that threat originates from increased urban sprawl, an ever-increasing, better equipped/informed fanbase or whatever) and that's to increase the number of night stages. Of course, that makes the sport tougher to market but it seems to me that the marketing is going on at the national events so maybe someone should consider increasing the number of night stages at stand-alone regionals ...

[RichardM]

I voted for night stages even though I know from experience that dark and weather do hamper rescue efforts. But so does heavy underbrush, snow, rain, tornados, distance from town, etc. etc.

The only thing that does not hamper rescue efforts is racing in a bowl like NASCAR.

[DaveCotie]

Other than the reasons mentioned (or inferred) above (lower traffic/better chance for an event flying largely under the radar) the reason we raced mostly at night in the old days was FOR safety. The glow of oncoming headlights (whether from a civilian machine or an errant rally car) is a FAR more certain indicator that things are amiss onstage than anything we're doing right now. Woolf and Whittaker would likely have avoided their fatal shunt at Chisum 1982 had that stage run at night (the respective drivers would have seen each other's headlights and known there was oncoming traffic long before the Peugeot topped the crest that blinded John to the stage incursion).

To me it seems a pretty simple function to brain out how we can make rally safer in this era of stage incursion concerns (whether that threat originates from increased urban sprawl, an ever-increasing, better equipped/informed fanbase or whatever) and that's to increase the number of night stages. Of course, that makes the sport tougher to market but it seems to me that the marketing is going on at the national events so maybe someone should consider increasing the number of night stages at stand-alone regionals ...

I have a question related to this.

With the very bright lites (HIDs and such) that are run these days, would you still see the oncoming lights? Having experienced the lights of a Rally Car from almost head on at a night stage it just seems to me that they are so bright they would "wash out" the oncoming lights or is it the movement of the oncoming lights that they eye would notice?

[flatOVERcrest]

I have a question related to this.

With the very bright lites (HIDs and such) that are run these days, would you still see the oncoming lights?

You would not. They would see yours tho.
We had that problem at Ojibwe 2007 when the civilian car coming against us was already almost on the left ditch even before we exited the Left5 preceeding our "meeting point".
Their headlights shining at us looked barely like weak flashlights against the 8 HID lamps our car was flashing at than moment..

20 more seconds and would have made no difference anyway...but that's another thread..

[Cosworth]

I love night stages. Both to run and to spectate. I remember going out into the woods to see the Gr B cars go by at night. We would hear them for miles before the lights could be seen.

[Jens]

Night rallying IS RALLY!

The rest is forest sprint racing, or stadium racing, or silly stunt driving. Yawn.

[wvonkessler]

The issue of night event safety is for the competitor.

Everything a competitor does is a calculated risk. If you wish to take the risk of running an event at night, and maybe not getting help as quickly, you, as a competitor, must consider this, and if you are concerned, then perhaps you shouldn't run night stages.

The insurance companies really don't care, as you have signed a waiver.

I like night stages, and if I feel an event is well run and safe, I will run night stages at that event.

Wilson

[randyzimmer]

What Mad Mike said...

option a
Broccoli is a disgusting vegetable and I would never eat it.
option b
Broccoli is revolting but my mother makes me eat it.

Where's the,
I actually Like broccoli?
(I don't)

[BajaBill]

Yup,
Night rallies = Sepporating the men from the boys.

I love night rallies:)

Bill Holmes
Truck #44

[Eric Burmeister]

I can't comment (and therefore didn't vote) on the question at hand, as I don't have professional experience in rescue operations.

That said, I like night stages, both as a competitor and as a spectator. I don't like them as a worker.

I do think you can see the oncoming traffic much easier. I've seen things coming at me much earlier, even with rally lights ablaze. And of course, they will see something earlier and *hopefully* give way. Not many of us have 8 HIDs or even find them useful when you are back in the dust. I use a pod with 2 HIDs and 2 130w halogens. I run with the HIDs turned off half the time because the white light comes right back into my eyes and completely blinds me in a dust bank.

[CJPUTZIER]

When I started Rallying in 1986 I would go faster at night then in the day light. It was way more fun on nite stages and any one who has ever ridden a snowmobile will tell you night riding is much safer than day riding, as you see the on coming sled in the distance. I'll take nite rallying over day stuff any time Chris Putzier

[Eddie Fiorelli]

Yup. let's just say that IF I had to run my aux lights during a transit through a dark forest road because my low beams were flaking out on me, then no, I would not be able to see upcoming headlights of civillian traffic (that really shouldn't be on a dark forest road at night) until they were right on me. And this is IF I was using 100W halogens.

/wink /wink /nudge /nudge

I'd love to see more rallies with night stages.

[Billy Elliot]

As Lurch said, I can't really comment if it hinders rescue efforts since just about any rally competitor won't know that.

From a drivers point of view, I see no difference between night and day. There might be an elevated risk of driving at night and relying on what is in the notes when you can't read what is over a crest (had that problem during LSPR and the way my co-driver was calling notes). I ended up driving slow as all hell. I can probably go slower on a night stage and "feel" like I am going faster.

But having a rally without night stages seems like taking the left turns out of NASCAR. Is it going to be where we will have all day stages, with some specialty rally that is a "night rally"?

[A Marzetti]

Yup. let's just say that IF I had to run my aux lights during a transit through a dark forest road because my low beams were flaking out on me, then no, I would not be able to see upcoming headlights of civillian traffic (that really shouldn't be on a dark forest road at night) until they were right on me. And this is IF I was using 100W halogens.

/wink /wink /nudge /nudge

I'd love to see more rallies with night stages.

I run 4 100W Bosch 225s on my street car and can always see oncoming headlights both on the highway and on side roads. That said I haven't driven with HID's but I don't think that would make much difference.

[Mad Mike]

I run 4 100W Bosch 225s on my street car and can always see oncoming headlights both on the highway and on side roads. That said I haven't driven with HID's but I don't think that would make much difference.

{dating_myself_again}There was a day when precious few cars on US roads even had Halogens. I remember buying motorcycle H4s, peeling off the 'For motorcycle or off road use only' sticker and "illegally" replacing the crappy sealed beams with them. {/dating_myself_again} I mention this to make the point that there is a FAR bigger difference between HIDs and Halogens than there was going from archaic sealed beams to Halogens.

{vendor_disclaimer} I've been sponsored by KC HiLiTES since before running my first rally in 1977 and was one of the first privateers to run HIDs (KCs, natch) which helped sell several sets to cars that started night stages behind me (eh, Lurch?).{/vendor_disclaimer}

All that said, short of illuminating a stage with stadium lights I can't imagine HIDs or anything else totally washing out the glow of oncoming headlights.

[greycar]

Well personally when i can't see in the dark I just start feeling my way around.

;)

[vorpal rally]

I can't say whether or not it would compromise safety, even in extreme weather. Define extreme weather please Alex. Are we talking about extremely high temperatures in Pennsylvania in June. A blizzard in Michigan in January? A torrential downpour in Washington state? Any of these environmental factors CAN have an effect on how rescuers work an incident. For those of you who might not know, fire & rescue personnel are taught that their safety comes first. Yours is a distant second. If they can't respond in a safe manner, then that defeats the whole purpose of having them show up to your incident. When I took an EMT class in the mid 90's it was drilled into me, Scene Safety!! Scene Safety!! Scene Safety!!.

[flatOVERcrest]

All, seems like this thread of mine has caused some people (to be precise, that have not replied to this thread) to get upset for some reason.
I'm still trying to understand why, but it could be a case of "internet misunderstanding" which (sigh!) is very common in today's world.
To avoid the same to happen again in the future, I will refrain from now on from posting on public forums that discuss Rally.
See you on the stages.
Sincerely,
Alex Gelsomino

[Bruce]

Alex, I think discussing the ramifications of night stages is a good thing...especially in terms of some of the things being suggested on the thread about reducing costs. When you ask questions, you present a viewpoint from the pointy end of the field that is not often heard here. From an organizer's point of view, it's interesting to find out what things competitors DON'T know that I thought they did - or should.

I DO think the way your poll was presented betrayed your viewpoint. Don't try to make it a poll - just tell us what you think. We're all friends here...

Bruce

[dazed driver]

Alex, you have started some of the most viewed, constructive, and USEFUL posts on this forum. Leave if you feel you should, but your experience and insight (and resulting posts) seems to be generating a positive outcome, even if a few people become offended.

[Don Kennedy]

All, seems like this thread of mine has caused some people (to be precise, that have not replied to this thread) to get upset for some reason.
I'm still trying to understand why, but it could be a case of "internet misunderstanding" which (sigh!) is very common in today's world.
To avoid the same to happen again in the future, I will refrain from now on from posting on public forums that discuss Rally.
See you on the stages.
Sincerely,
Alex Gelsomino

Please don't bow to the vocal minority (which is what it seems to be?).

[Adrian Thompson]

From the humble spectator point of view I love night stages. The only rally I spectate is Sno*Drift and my favorite part is the night stages. The angry bark of the wastages in the distance, the occasional flashes of the lights as the car get's closer then the rush as the car goes past, preferably sideways on a long sweeper viewed from 6-8 feet up a snow bank on the inside followed by the glow of the tail lights disappearing up to the next corner where I can hear the cheer from the spectators up there. To me that IS rally, every time I go it send shivers down my spine. I know I'll never compete in a stage rally, and that's OK, but I truly LOVE night stages and have since first traipsing half way through some forgot forest in the late 80's to watch the RAC rally back when "Men were real men, women were real women, and small, furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small, furry creatures from Alpha Centauri." So to sum up please keep the night stages, us humble speccies love em.

Thanks for the memories guys.

P.S. as I don't have a dog in this fight I haven't voted.