Do we really close stage roads? [Archive]

Doug Woods

11-01-2008, 07:34 AM

The first post in the new forum.

The title says it all. Are our stages really closed to non-rally traffic?

I have recently retired as a Steward, since I do not want to be a participant in the event where we end up killing someone.

Almost every event that I have attended in the past five years, there has been some incident with non-rally traffic on stages. Some very serious. In fact, several times, I have been spectating (at official and unofficial locations) and had I not been there, there would have been civilian vehicles accessing stages.

What do people think about this situtation? Is it lack of manpower, lack of marshal training, lack of authority to stop civilians, lack of education of locals, etc.?

I am particularly concerned about roads, trails, etc. being closed with only yellow tape and not physically blocked. Access by snowmobiles, ATVs, dirt bikes and mountain bikes are also issues that have not been properly dealt with.

If I was first car on the road these days, I would have concerns. On the other hand, many of the incidents that I have seen, or know about, have occured in the middle of the pack.

Finally, we need very specific rules in the rule book about how competitors and marshals are supposed to deal with such indicents when they occur.

Doug Woods

flatOVERcrest

11-01-2008, 09:53 AM

Great first topic Doug.
I think the lack of marshalls in N.A. events and the lack of knowledge from local resident that an event is actually happening in their area could be some of the factors that may have contributed to some "civilian stage intrusions" in the past few years.
In the Italian Championship events (example) as well as Club events they have a rule where there needs to be a marshall every 1 km of stage and law enforcement officers present at any major spectator spot or junctions in a stage. It's mandated by National Motorsports Federation or the stages get cancelled.
Obviously they are dealing with thousands more people per event we deal in N.A.
In Europe civilian stage intrusions are quite rare, alltho things like what happen to David in the BRC last year (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mIqvfnWY8I) can happen.
Lack of marshall training could be another factor, many times we find ourselves first on the road and notice a communication issue among control workers [example, the chief of the control (main radio communication with organizer and course opener cars) states the stage is not hot and the marshall at the stage start is about to set you off on the stage]
To answer the question, I don't think the roads can ever be considered 100% "closed" and everything can be expected to happen. Naturally it's not something that you think or worry about while you are flying, full concentration on a stage and considering the safety devices of a rally car and the fact that the driver and codriver are strapped with helmets, Hans and all, the worse case scenario would unfortunately, most likely, hurt the civilian traffic involved in an accident on stage, more than the competing crew.
Possible solutions?
I think that with the (unfortunate) lack or marshalls in N.A. forests, the first thing should be to mandate stages to be no longer than let's say 10 miles.
Sucks for sure..as the endurance aspect of competing in a 20/22 miles stage would disappear, but if a stage that long can't be controlled, or if safety can't be guaranteed to a certain level, then it's a better proposition that risking a collision between civilian and rally car and all the hundreds of consequences the sport would suffer.
I think Rally New York (Spring) last year did a good job as, yes, it did have many sprint stages (3 to 7 miles in lenght) but also offered 27 stages to the competitors and at the end the lenght of the event was equal to a normal national (and the fun factor equal to an event with long 20/22 miles stages)
It's a possible solution, any other ideas?

The first post in the new forum.

The title says it all. Are our stages really closed to non-rally traffic?

I have recently retired as a Steward, since I do not want to be a participant in the event where we end up killing someone.

Almost every event that I have attended in the past five years, there has been some incident with non-rally traffic on stages. Some very serious. In fact, several times, I have been spectating (at unofficial locations) and had I not been there, there would have been civilian vehicles accessing stages.

What do people think about this situtation? Is it lack of manpower, lack of marshal training, lack of authority to stop civilians, lack of education of locals, etc.?

If I was first car on the road these days, I would have concerns. On the other hand, many of the incidents that I have seen, or know about, have occured in the middle of the pack.

Finally, we need very specific rules in the rule book about how competitors and marshals are supposed to deal with such indicents when they occur.

Doug Woods

Morison

11-01-2008, 11:13 AM

I am particularly concerned about roads, trails, etc. being closed with only yellow tape and not physically blocked. Access by snowmobiles, ATVs, dirt bikes and mountain bikes are also issues that have not been properly dealt with.
I wholly agree.
WE have stopped using roads that had a lot of mountain bike trails many years ago and as an organizer I would need to have a very clear understanding of where a trail went and how it was accessed before I would be comfortable leaving just banner tape across it. (at this point the tape is more to indicate to course cars that someone has ENTERED the trail not come out from it. That's why I don't allow used banner tape at events I organize, if the banner tape is tied that indicates it has been broken and re-tied. Not fool proof but an indication.)

If I was first car on the road these days, I would have concerns. On the other hand, many of the incidents that I have seen, or know about, have occurred in the middle of the pack.
As you say, Doug, this isn't a first car on the road issue. That said, being a regular first car in the regionals here, I can't imagine starting a stage if I had even a hint that the organizer wasn't confident that they took all reasonable measures to ensure stage security.

Finally, we need very specific rules in the rule book about how competitors and marshals are supposed to deal with such indicents when they occur.
Absolutely. As a former steward and competitor who is well respected in the community, it would be great if you could help draft new rules or rule changes to help bring the changes needed.
The rally community is a community of, largely, volunteers. If people want to see changes, then please be ready and prepared to help bring those changes from ideas to actions.

Phlyan Pan

11-01-2008, 01:32 PM

Where does the non-rally traffic come from in most cases? I've personally never had one happen at a point where I was working. Do they drive through banner tape and past marshals? Are they coming from driveways from houses on stage? The first step in fixing something is identifying the cause.

When it comes to trails...yes, it's an issue, though in my opinion not as big an issue as non rally traffic on stage. If an atv or mountain bike comes to a stage, they generally are crossing it right? So they're only on the stage for a few seconds. Granted, an incident between a rally car and an atv would be tragic but the chances of it are greatly reduced.

Jim Stevens

11-01-2008, 02:30 PM

First let me thank Alex for suggesting this forum and the people at Special Stage for addressing the suggestion so promptly. Also thanks to Doug for this specific thread. Since he has opened the topic, no doubt after considerable thought, to advance an academic discussion on reducing risks, I will present a case study for your consideration.

I have lost some sleep over this thread's topic and thinking about the risks that we take driving down stages - blame it on old age, stupidity, slowness, whatever - nevertheless I have worried.

My case study starts out with a car running near the back of the rally experiencing a flat tire near the end of a long transit. As there is little or no shoulder on the road, the driver pulls off into an adjacent parking lot to change the tire. Several other cars and the course closing car, which is right behind the last car, pass during the five minutes it takes to change the tire.

The car with the flat arrives five minutes late at the next stage start control - which is only several miles after where the flat was changed. The crew encounters traffic driving out from the end of the stage on the last section of the road prior to the stage start. They find that the control and the stage have been closed and the course closing car with the involvement of the stage captain and rally control, has been dispatched through the stage. The stage captain and rally control attempt to see if they can time bar the car in question but it has only used 5 minutes of lateness (that resulting from the time lost to the flat). Thus it is eligible and entitled to run the stage. The stage is to be run again that evening so the stage marshals are still in place - although they too have seen the closing car come through and the course opening car has not reopened the stage for the second running. After considerable delay the rally car is instructed to start the stage.

Before I present the questions for this case study, let me address the question in a previous post - where does non rally traffic come from? Over the years that I have competed, I have seen at national events, vested photographers driving out of live stages against the stage traffic, people (workers, photographers, spectators) walking out of live stages (regardless of whether they were supposed to have been there or not), people living on a stage road driving out, ATVs and snowmobiles proceeding along stages. I am sure that others may confirm their own experiences but as Doug has suggested, it can happen.

Back to my case study:

Required part one:

- if you were the driver in the rally car, do you start the stage?
- what alternatives, if any do you have?

Required part two:

- assuming that you believe that there was increased risk in this case, what suggestions would you make to officials towards preventing such a problem in the future?

Morison

11-01-2008, 02:43 PM

Required part one:
- if you were the driver in the rally car, do you start the stage?
Absolutely not. The road has been re-opened and if you are running behind closing you are not insured.

- what alternatives, if any do you have?
Since the stage is being repeated, I would demand that we be given our time on the second pass in lieu of the missing time, adjusted to account for stage condition differences using the difference is stage times of nearby competitors as a source for the factor. If the stage isn't repeated I would pick a couple of reference competitors and use their times to create a reasonable guess.

[quote]- assuming that you believe that there was increased risk in this case, what suggestions would you make to officials towards preventing such a problem in the future?/QUOTE]
Pay closer attention to the tracking of the cars in your competition. They should have known where you were and what you were doing.

Wedge

11-01-2008, 03:25 PM

On the issue of trails crossing the roads. We had an issue at one of our events a couple years ago. This was on a rally stage which has been used for many years, and was considered VERY well closed off and controlled.
Somehow a civillian vehicle appeared mid-stage. Luckily this happened in between runnings of the stage. It turned out that a trail that used to be a dead-end, had recently been extended out to the main highway. Because it was thought to be a dead-end, and while trying to maximise the use of a limited number of marshals, there was no marshal placed at that trail.
Lesson learned. Even on a well known road, with maps of all the trails that meet it, it's important to keep all that information fully up to date.

Doug Woods

11-01-2008, 03:30 PM

Where does non-rally traffic come from when a stage is hot?

Many, many places. Here are some that I have had to personally deal with in the past five years:

1) People who live on the road driving out of their driveway through yellow tape and onto the stage.

2) Accredited photographers driving onto the stage after the fast cars have gone by.

3) Spectators driving onto the stage (presumably to get to the next stage in time to see those same fast cars).

4) Rally workers driving against stage traffic.

5) Logging trucks trying to access the stage with a vehicle much bigger than the one being used to block the road.

6) Local resident driving through marshals at a major intersection at a spectator location (I had to jump in front of her car as she was about to drive onto the stage).

7) Snowmobilers and ATVs trying to access the stage from "their" trails (my experience is that these people are usually well lubricated).

8) Spectators placing large boulders just over the crest where cars will land (I know, not a traffic situation, but still something that I had to deal with).

I am sure that there are many more. I know that I have had to talk a lot of locals into doing some "quality spectating" in order for the stage to even be run or to continue running.

Which brings up another related topic. Too many times, the most experienced workers are assigned to operate the start and finish controls on a stage, while inexperienced (some of them out there for the first time) people are assigned to work as safety marshals in the stage.

I think this is backwards. We can always sort out a timing issue after the rally, if it was a result of an inexperienced worker. However, we cannot bring someone back to life who was killed due to someone's inexperience.

Doug Woods

Don Kennedy

11-01-2008, 06:29 PM

Where does non-rally traffic come from when a stage is hot?

Many, many places. Here are some that I have had to personally deal with in the past five years:

1) People who live on the road driving out of their driveway through yellow tape and onto the stage.

2) Accredited photographers driving onto the stage after the fast cars have gone by.

3) Spectators driving onto the stage (presumably to get to the next stage in time to see those same fast cars).

4) Rally workers driving against stage traffic.

5) Logging trucks trying to access the stage with a vehicle much bigger than the one being used to block the road.

6) Local resident driving through marshals at a major intersection at a spectator location (I had to jump in front of her car as she was about to drive onto the stage).

7) Snowmobilers and ATVs trying to access the stage from "their" trails (my experience is that these people are usually well lubricated).

8) Spectators placing large boulders just over the crest where cars will land (I know, not a traffic situation, but still something that I had to deal with).

I am sure that there are many more. I know that I have had to talk a lot of locals into doing some "quality spectating" in order for the stage to even be run or to continue running.

Which brings up another related topic. Too many times, the most experienced workers are assigned to operate the start and finish controls on a stage, while inexperienced (some of them out there for the first time) people are assigned to work as safety marshals in the stage.
Doug Woods
I think we have to concentrate first on those items we have the most control over, items # 2 and # 4 (and maybe #3). These are people who sometimes think they know what they're doing and can get away with it.

I think this is backwards. We can always sort out a timing issue after the rally, if it was a result of an inexperienced worker. However, we cannot bring someone back to life who was killed due to someone's inexperience.

Doug Woods
Now there's an interesting idea!
I also like the idea of a marshall every 1 km as Alex stated. But I don't see what difference shortening the stage length makes.

Jens

11-02-2008, 03:35 AM

The first post in the new forum.

The title says it all. Are our stages really closed to non-rally traffic?

I have recently retired as a Steward, since I do not want to be a participant in the event where we end up killing someone.

.....

Doug Woods

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CLOSED STAGE other than those in stadium racing!

I have many less stage miles than you, Doug, but I have met on-coming non-rally traffic multiple times in multiple states while I was rallying on hot stages.

When I was younger (70's) I drove as if the stages were closed, and was about as fast as Bruno. In my more recent outings I drove much slower for many reasons including that what is over that hill or around that curve is totally unknown regardless of the tree-lines, route book, or anything else.

More spectator deaths or deaths of non-rally related "civilians" is only a matter of time.

robin

11-02-2008, 08:27 AM

More Police. They love dealing with liquored-up toy-riders.

ronsorem

11-02-2008, 01:08 PM

First, THANK YOU for this thread --admin: stickey material?

I've been in the stage rally pack ('70s); on the ground ('80s-'90s); and back in- and in-front-of the pack since 2000.

--''there are no closed roads"
sadly true... this last weekend I caught up with a media crew on stage, then met another vehicle counter course, they stopped conferred and both proceded counter course -- I could only follow, they wouldn't stop. When they found their "good spot" they pulled into a sideroad. I instructed them not to move and got ID. Minutes later Car 0 found them in the middle of the stage road setting up cameras and backdrops. Media on foot is a bit less dangerous, but tend to leave early after the fast cars. Some better sanction (mabe not allowed next event?) for ignoring safety.

''would you start the stage?"
absolutely not! The late arriving car is just another civilian at that point -- Stage Safety is compromised. Sweep should not have been sent until the car's whereabouts was determined. 'Where is Car#xx?'
This happened twice last weekend (missing cars, not premature sweep). One car retired on transit, returned to Service, but wasn't accounted for at Stage Start. The turnaround stage could not go cold until he was found, and so the inbound start could not go hot either. Later, another car, approaching MPL and at the end of the pack was effecting repairs in transit. Sweep could not be sent in, although with the long gap, spectators begain leaving the stage via the roadway. Even experienced Spectator Marshals were helpless given the volume and state of "lubrication" as Doug points out.
Competitor should protest his exclusion. Inquiry/protest any timing issues. Probably request average of before and after stages. But do not start on a cold stage!

"no used banner tape"
I like it... but last weekend we ran out of on-board banner and resorted to used tape.
Our Course Opening team has developed an "olde tyme tracker" sense about whether banner has been driven through or just blown down. If we can't determine, Net Control and the Chairman will be notified and a Marshal requsted. Sometimes Course Cars are required/re-assigned as Road Blocks.

"more police..."
I've had several cases where RCMP or a County Sheriff would have been comforting. DooWops has County Sheriffs, WildWest has County Sheriffs, I'd really like to see an RCMP at AMR and Helmer...
a drunk and pi**ed driver in a white pikup truck tried to get around a Marshal last weekend. Net Control and the Stage Crew were notified with a description. The "over lubricated fan" was heard trying to go overland to get to a good spot to watch his "hero" -- hopefully he's still out there...
Perhaps some sanction against the rally car associated with the fan (driving around or at Spectator) could be promoted similar to penalties for Service Crews being assessed to the Rally Car?

"a Marshal every 1km..."
wouldn't that be great! As more HAMs are attracted to rally, more Marshal or Road Closure points can have communication with Net Control. As it stands this is a volunteer pool with limited resources. Maybe a free tee shirt is enough to get some newbies hooked?

OK off my soapbox for now,
let's keep this going to develop/improve this protocol

--Ron see ya on the road...
K7RDS

Morison

11-02-2008, 01:12 PM

Maybe you're using words that the filters deem inappropriate (such as big, ears, empty, suit, Mc, Pain, and so on) (I keeeed, I keeeed)

is this some sort of closed forum?
I've made three attempts to reply, all three would not post -- returns to "not logged in"
very frustrating
I'll see if this loads
--
Ron

Eric Burmeister

11-02-2008, 01:31 PM

Phlyan Pan

11-02-2008, 01:39 PM

Cars getting on stage....would stringing cables with padlocks on them across roads and driveways help? What kind of cost would this be? Would the rally have the authority to do so?

Edit: Same question for known ATV trails...can you string something across that's a bit harder to break then banner tape?

Photogs driving on stage... Personally I don't like to see photogs on stage with access to a car. If they want to get dropped off before the stage and picked up after fine...but I don't trust them with a car during a hot stage personally.

Marshals driving on stage...this is a communication issue, pure and simple. And I don't mean necessarily communication during the stage. People need to know the plan beforehand. 2 or 3 years ago at MFR we were stage marshals and our pre-stage briefing consisted of the stage captain yelling at a crowd "is everyone here?....I'm in the XXXX color car (I don't remember the color)....follow me" Then when we got to the stage someone pointed at a driveway and said "you go there" and then left us there. Didn't tell us what the schedule, when the road was closed or would be opened again, when were allowed to leave, where to go when the stage is over or if we were covering another stage...nothing. That's unacceptable. Luckily we were fairly experienced and knew enough to stay put and pay attention to the course cars but somebody at their first rally may not have known that. I believe this was an in and out stage (my memory is a bit foggy) and a stage marshal who didn't know that or wasn't paying attention may have thought it was over and tried to drive out after the first run through.

ronsorem

11-02-2008, 01:45 PM

Maybe you're using words that the filters deem inappropriate (such as big, ears, empty, suit, Mc, Pain, and so on) (I keeeed, I keeeed)

Well Keith this is probably a cross posting, but check the time stamp... thanks for your words of encouragement. No keeeed, reaaaly!

Seriously this thread needs to be expanded. We have enough certified old fa**s on here to fill a novel of horror stories. What can we collectively do to improve safety -- at least operational safety.
We can't put cell/foam on every guardrail everywhere.
We can't put stock-car door beams everywhere.

Morison

11-02-2008, 01:57 PM

We can't put stock-car door beams everywhere.
Why not?

dano9988

11-02-2008, 09:22 PM

--''there are no closed roads"
sadly true... this last weekend I caught up with a media crew on stage, then met another vehicle counter course, they stopped conferred and both proceded counter course -- I could only follow, they wouldn't stop. When they found their "good spot" they pulled into a sideroad. I instructed them not to move and got ID. Minutes later Car 0 found them in the middle of the stage road setting up cameras and backdrops. Media on foot is a bit less dangerous, but tend to leave early after the fast cars. Some better sanction (mabe not allowed next event?) for ignoring safety.

How interesting.

The incident you mention was at Pacific Forest Rally. I was working with that media crew and was one of the cars you are complaining about. When we were moving to a new shooting location the road was open, after the first pass of the rally on a road to be used twice. We waited for cars 98 and 99 to pass before we moved. We had limited time and the cameraman had proceeded to the new location while we removed the signage of the series sponsors. We were proceeding to the new camera location, in the second vehicle when we met the first with the cameraman coming back down the road to us. While were were conferring, having realized our shooting location was approximately 500 meters behind us, car 000 appeared. The situation was explained to them and we went to the first safe place on the road. Car 000 rudely demanded our names, even through we were traveling on a supposedly open road. We did not search for our "good spot" but pulled into the first safe spot. We were not instructed to not move but rudely ordered to stay put as if we were children.

Car 0 found two of us trying to put up sponsor banners and signage and we were in a safe spot, off the road, while doing so. At no time was the camera on the road nor even close to it. We had a radio with us and were monitoring the rally net to ensure the safety of our crew and the competitors. We were well aware of car 0 coming and were working to do our job in a safe manner. At no time did car 000 or car 0 even think to ask us anything, only to issue orders and make demands. Car 00, when passing did not stop even though we were in the same places off the road setting up signage.

Just a quick note here. This is a TV2GO crew. All of us were knowledgeable, experienced individuals. We were trying to make sure the the sponsors were able to be seen on tv and trying to move locations in very limited time, approximately 15 minutes. Don't forget, no sponsors seen on tv means no tv as the sponsors pay the freight for that. We need to work together, not suffer the abuse that was thrown at us by both car 0 and car 000 when we were simply trying to do our jobs and get rallying on tv. Something many competitors are crying for in the U.S.

Here is a second thing to think about. There is a shortage of workers in rallying. This is the second time I have been verbally abused while working a rally. I was not even going to work on this rally but was talked into it. I simply wanted a weekend of being a spectator to watch the sport I love. The first time I was confronted by a nationally known competitor here in Canada while working a spectator area when he wanted to continue further down a stage that was closed after he had somehow been able to pass through the finish control. That's right he would have been driving against the rally direction after car 00 had passed by but before car 0. For stopping him, I was harassed and insulted by him and his friends for over an hour before the rally passed and the stage was reopened to the public to move on. He was reported to the organizer and the Regional Rally Director was supposedly advised as well. As far as I know, nothing was done to sanction him. Now I have been verbally abused by fellow rally workers while working a rally. Count me as a former rally worker. Done, finished, flame away, I love the sport but am done with working to make to happen.

I have worked approximately 10 events in various areas, mostly with spectators. I competed in the early 80's as a co-driver. I am not some newbie to rallying. No more, this is one person driven from working rallies by the treatment I have received.

Morison

11-02-2008, 10:09 PM

The incident you mention was at Pacific Forest Rally. I was working with that media crew and was one of the cars you are complaining about.
The answer in this case is better communication between The Series camera crews, the organizers and the course cars about the expected movement of cameras between stages.
The TV2Go crews in particular are all pros who have been doing this for a very long time and understand the movement constraints.
I'm not pointing fingers, just suggesting that more communication be had. In an ideal world we'd place amateur radio operators with the camera crews so they could report their movements ... but I have yet to see an event with that many spare radio operators.

Car 0 found two of us trying to put up sponsor banners and signage and we were in a safe spot, off the road, while doing so.
As a rallymaster I have to rely on my course car drivers to use their best judgment when dealing with media placements and moving people. Politeness goes a long way for sure, but when you have cars snarling to be let loose at the top of a stage there is some added pressure.
As a course car crew member I know I have had both pleasant and heated discussions with people. The more unexpected the incident the more excitable I get.
I can tell you that the course car crews at PFR are all knowledgeable and passionate about their jobs ... I expect they just weren't expecting you where they found you.

The first time I was confronted by a nationally known competitor here in Canada ... As far as I know, nothing was done to sanction him. There is very little that could be done officially since he wasn't a participant in the event. He was, without a doubt, talked to about the incident and reminded that volunteers deserve better from anyone and particularly from someone that relies on volunteers so they can go racing.

Count me as a former rally worker.
I am truly sorry to hear you say that. You were a valuable asset to the rally community.

John Sundelin

11-02-2008, 10:13 PM

dano9988

11-02-2008, 10:39 PM

From my completely detached perspective, it sounds like you have a legitimate gripe about the earlier incident, and it's unfortunate that it occurred, more so because it seems to have soured your general outlook on the sport. However, your explanation about the PFR incident is unsettling. Everybody wants TV coverage, but everybody needs rallies that are SAFE and preferably on time. One of those items had to give, and frankly, it wasn't your decision to make.

--
John

Your right, it wasn't our decision to make. And we did not make it. Did you miss the part that we were moving on an open road? Or the part about how we got off the road as quickly as possible in a safe spot? Or the part how car 00 had no issues with where we were putting up our signs?

As a volunteer, I expect to be spoken politely. That is simply a common courtesy, something that seemed to be in short supply with the course opening crews. Crews who are indeed accomplished crews who for the most part, did their job exceptionally well.

That's it, no more comments from me. Have your fun.

John Sundelin

11-02-2008, 11:06 PM

Well, perhaps I misunderstood... Were you AHEAD of the 000 car at all times while you were on the road? That's the entire issue. Once you are behind the 000 car, it's no longer an open road.

--
John

Morison

11-03-2008, 07:20 AM

Well, perhaps I misunderstood... Were you AHEAD of the 000 car at all times while you were on the road? That's the entire issue. Once you are behind the 000 car, it's no longer an open road.

--
John

Not entirely true,
The custom in Canada is that access to the road is stopped after 00, not 000 has passed. From an insurance standpoint the road closure starts at the bumper of car 0. (IE if car 0 has an accident, normal road insurance applies - don't ask me how I know this.)

Particularly on a stage like Helmer, when a second run is happening and you have control of both ends, it is easy to fall into the trap of believing that the road has never been opened and is effectively secure.

In this case they were also dealing with a rogue and lubricated spectator/local who was trying to breach the stage elsewhere.

Does this excuse treating anyone poorly? no.

I don't pretend to speak for Ron or Lee but I can only assume that they were unaware of your planned movements.

flatOVERcrest

11-03-2008, 07:27 AM

But I don't see what difference shortening the stage length makes.

Don, you have a budget of X road marshalls per stage, is it better safety scenario 5 marshalls spreaded over a 22 miles stage or 5 marshalls over a 8.9 miles stage?

Morison

11-03-2008, 07:33 AM

Don, you have a budget of X road marshalls per stage, is it better safety scenario 5 marshalls spreaded over a 22 miles stage or 5 marshalls over a 8.9 miles stage?

That all depends.
Are there places every mile that you can safely put a marshall? Particularly in winter events, marshall placement is often determined by where you can safely put the volunteer. Their personal safety is also a concern.

randyzimmer

11-03-2008, 09:05 AM

Sorry Alex,
I agree that all that can be done, should be done, but Rally, in the woods, over any distance that marshals can not keep visual contact with each other and have the immediate ability to stop competition is inherently risky.
So I guess I'm with Jens on this one. If you want to make this sport like circuit racing, you may as well just move to circuit racing.
The Mille Miglia got too dangerous, Watkins and Elkart too.
Spa is always in doubt still.
I watched your Maine video and the car gets to 80MPH in an instant.
The cars have gotten back, and past, GpB speeds and it is time to throttle back the cars.

rightseat

11-03-2008, 09:08 AM

Don, you have a budget of X road marshalls per stage, is it better safety scenario 5 marshalls spreaded over a 22 miles stage or 5 marshalls over a 8.9 miles stage?

shortening stage length cuts down on number of resident's driveways to cover, cuts down on # of trail xings, etc.

going with shorter stages allows event organizers to choose road sections with the least number of residents/intersections/problem areas.

this is coming from a guy who loves looong stages. hate to see them go, but it's understandable, especially with changes in land ownership in remote areas frequented by rallies.

long live Middle Dam stages, 17 miles of eyes WIDE open (and zero local residents)!

AlanPerry

11-03-2008, 10:02 AM

shortening stage length cuts down on number of resident's driveways to cover, cuts down on # of trail xings, etc.

So, because events in some areas have problems controlling access to the stage roads, all long stages should be eliminated? That seems silly to me. I guess I picked a good time to stop competing.

Long live the 33-mile version of Nahwatzel!

alan

flatOVERcrest

11-03-2008, 10:43 AM

So, because events in some areas have problems controlling access to the stage roads, all long stages should be eliminated?

Alan, let's be realistic here..that is a problem everywhere in USA and Canada and in the past years we have heard of stories from all the 4 Rally corners of both countries..

AlanPerry

11-03-2008, 11:11 AM

Alan, let's be realistic here..that is a problem everywhere in USA and Canada and in the past years we have heard of stories from all the 4 Rally corners of both countries.

OK, I'll be realistic. Realistically, the stage roads will never be completely secure. Neither are road courses.

I was once less than 100m from having a head-on incident on stage that likely would have killed me, so I am sensitive to this issue.

However, a simplistic "no long stages" directive solves no problems. Some stage roads need a road marshal every 100 feet and some have such limited access that they need almost no marshals to prevent unauthorized access to the stage.

alan

rightseat

11-03-2008, 12:12 PM

So, because events in some areas have problems controlling access to the stage roads, all long stages should be eliminated? That seems silly to me. I guess I picked a good time to stop competing.

Long live the 33-mile version of Nahwatzel!

alan

Ahem. Pleez note that I did NOT say "eliminate long stages."

I just said the trend was understandable given how much of what was once timber company land (and accompanying nice long gnarly stage roads) is being sold off for private development.

AlanPerry

11-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Ahem. Pleez note that I did NOT say "eliminate long stages."

I am sorry for quoting things in a manner that implied that it was your opinion.

starion887

11-03-2008, 05:15 PM

The situation was explained to them and we went to the first safe place on the road. Car 000 rudely demanded our names, even through we were traveling on a supposedly open road. We did not search for our "good spot" but pulled into the first safe spot. We were not instructed to not move but rudely ordered to stay put as if we were children.

Well, I can relate with 000 to a degree, having BTDT. It was a bit different as we were 000 working through a stage from start to finish, and suddenly a prerss car with a rally offcial showed up behind us, after the start was closed, and with no radio call to us. I got a bit 'flamey' with the rally official (who SHOULD have not entered the stage without a radio call AND permission from the Clerk of Course). The press guys' eyes got wide as saucers as I was flaming away. As Keith said, there is a lot of pressure to be safe AND to keep the stages going, and sometimes this sort of thing will really take a very tired person by surprise and result in some rude behavior. So, I think you and all press folks need to take that into account, while we on the organizing side try to keep in mind that you have YOUR assignements and pressures too!

Fortunately, I knew the press guys, and called them in the week following the rally to explain. It resulted in a couple of good laughs, at my expense. I bet you would have felt a lot better with any type of follow-up.

Regards,
Mark B.

Don Kennedy

11-03-2008, 07:31 PM

shortening stage length cuts down on number of resident's driveways to cover, cuts down on # of trail xings, etc.

Only if you use the same roads over and over again (which seems to be more the norm these days). Otherwise, x miles of stages requires x amount of workers and has x amount of side roads, etc. And running the same road over and over doesn't eliminate the need to perform the same functions for each running of the road to attempt to secure it.

Joe Average

11-03-2008, 09:06 PM

Eric Burmeister

11-04-2008, 07:55 AM

Maybe we should go back to starting events at 6pm and run to 7am. I don't see a ton of TV coverage except you tube,or big buck sponsors, so there's no need to worry about sunlight for filming. Not alot of mountian bikers out in the woods at 2am to worry about, I'm guessing. All the bright lights on the cars "might" clue in the few people(Deer Jackers, Those with an intrest in a local still) out at 3am in the middle of nowhere to pay attention and/or stay away since their activities might not be 100% legal.

My 2 cents.

Sean Gallagher

Man there's something to this! I'd be for all-nighters for sure! Nearly no dirt bikers (I am one, btw), less ATVers, no mountain bikers, no hikers, no horseback riders...night rallying is definitely safer rallying from a potential trail usage conflict perspective.

The only exception to the rule is snowmobilers. At night they just get faster and drunker.

Foghorn

11-04-2008, 09:07 AM

Man there's something to this! I'd be for all-nighters for sure!

I won't bore you all with the droolings and ramblings of an old fart about how good life used to be in the old days of rally, but one of the real quantifiable safety effects of night rallying was the awareness of others on stage. Road closure mesaures were nowhere as effective then as they are now but the fact that you could see the oncoming light from other vehicles (and they could see you) went a long way toward reducing the potential of a surprise encounter around the corner or over the crest. That awareness is just not possible in the daytime.

Morison

11-04-2008, 09:23 AM

I won't bore you all with the droolings and ramblings of an old fart about how good life used to be in the old days of rally, but one of the real quantifiable safety effects of night rallying was the awareness of others on stage. Road closure mesaures were nowhere as effective then as they are now but the fact that you could see the oncoming light from other vehicles (and they could see you) went a long way toward reducing the potential of a surprise encounter around the corner or over the crest. That awareness is just not possible in the daytime.

A local event here was refused road permissions for a night stage, the government was not convinced that finding an off car let alone recovery and rescue at night would be reasonably easy.

AlanPerry

11-04-2008, 09:36 AM

I love night stages, but they create a bunch of additional complications when things go wrong.

When Dennis Martin and I had our big roll at LSPR '04, after we got out of the car, we had no idea where the car was in relation to the stage road or from which direction rally cars would be coming from. Dennis ran the wrong direction. I waited until I saw the lights of the next car, but, by then, it was too late to get far enough up the road to warn them and they ended up stuffing their car into a tree. A little daylight would have improved that situation greatly.

Eric Burmeister

11-04-2008, 09:38 AM

flatOVERcrest

11-04-2008, 09:46 AM

A local event here was refused road permissions for a night stage, the government was not convinced that finding an off car let alone recovery and rescue at night would be reasonably easy.

Keith brings up another VERY valid point..
Do night stages have a negative side when it comes to speedy rescue ops for a car off or injured crew, and can conditions like poor visibility, bad weather (impossible for rescue hely to fly in bad weather at night), slippery roads, magnify that?
Also workers staying out in the freezing weather at night, in the middle of nowhere, that's not very safe for them.
Many countries in Europe have banned night stages and in places like New Zealand teams don't even have light pods provisions for their cars. If there is an event that is delayed and runs at the limits of daylight (rare), they just stop it and call it the race at that point..
It could be insurance mandated, I'm not sure 100%.
I personally think that night stages have a special flair and make our motorsport very unique. Winning the last event with a strong effort on the first night was VERY rewarding, just because it was at night.
But is safety for competitors and workers reduced during night stages especially with weather involved? What does everyone think?

Jens

11-04-2008, 09:46 AM

I won't bore you all with the droolings and ramblings of an old fart about how good life used to be in the old days of rally, but.........

Man, some of you old guys sure have been browbeaten by the New World Order into apologizing for remembering the good ol' days.

I'm renaming the "good ol' days" into "The BEST DAYS before the Kurt Spitzner and his goose-stepping Hitler youth NWO killed real rally in the U.S.".

Ahhhhhh... that felt good.... that was like a cleansing breath. I feel better now.

jimmy

11-04-2008, 10:50 AM

Do they ban civilian driving at night, in case an accident might occur (and similar finding and rescue "problems" might happpen)?

A local event here was refused road permissions for a night stage, the government was not convinced that finding an off car let alone recovery and rescue at night would be reasonably easy.

press on,

Morison

11-04-2008, 10:51 AM

Said government needs to be educated.

Easier said than done.
We went through all of the positives of running at night and they pushed back strongly with concerns that were not easy, or even possible, to overcome.

Morison

11-04-2008, 10:54 AM

C'mon - you know better than that.
This road is actually labelled as a 'drive at your own risk' and has some significant exposures. It would be safe to say that the risk to our competitors is sufficiently higher (as is the protection.) That said, this is a road that can and has bitten some of the best drivers.

Do they ban civilian driving at night, in case an accident might occur (and similar finding and rescue "problems" might happpen)?

press on,

jimmy

11-04-2008, 10:57 AM

So, Jens, you coming to Tall Pines this year?

http://www.tallpinesrally.com/TallPines/Default.aspx?tabid=1

Spitzner never existed up there. They still run night stages. U.S. dollar currently goes further (no promises after today). There are even some proper cars entered (no Porsches, yet).

My offer to buy you the VIP Spectator Package Pass still stands.....

Man, some of you old guys sure have been browbeaten by the New World Order into apologizing for remembering the good ol' days.

I'm renaming the "good ol' days" into "The BEST DAYS before the Kurt Spitzner and his goose-stepping Hitler youth NWO killed real rally in the U.S.".

Ahhhhhh... that felt good.... that was like a cleansing breath. I feel better now.

press on,

Racer5

11-04-2008, 11:16 AM

Personally I like night stages.

Teresa and I actually met oncoming traffic once on a stage in late 2002. Lucky for us it was night and we saw them coming.

Looking at stage times from Mt. Hood Rally 2008 all teams went slower on the third and final running of the stages. That third run was at night. I'll also note that the road surface did not deteriorate. Now, we were not a lot slower but we were slower and slower is safer from a F=MA perspective.

Best regards,

Charles Buren

Jens

11-04-2008, 01:21 PM

So, Jens, you coming to Tall Pines this year?
.....
My offer to buy you the VIP Spectator Package Pass still stands.....

Oh man! Let's see should I make this a private reply, or public? Hmmmm.... Oh what the hell I'm in a PPM (pity poor me) mood today.

My doctor told me moving to a warm climate would help relieve the angina. So, I don't think I'm gonna go to Canada in the winter. (But, I'm not ready to join the Geritol crowd in Florida).

However, if I can revascularize this POS heart of mine maybe I'll call your bluff and show up there next year.

Doug Woods

11-04-2008, 02:41 PM

My doctor told me moving to a warm climate would help relieve the angina. So, I don't think I'm gonna go to Canada in the winter.

Jens:

Tall Pines is in the fall, not the winter. It just has winter roads, sometimes. Actually, the last five Tall Pines have been quite pleasant.

The VIP buses are warm. No, crappy school buses. Intercity buses are used.

Plus you could request (or make sure you avoided) the VIP bus that the Woods family is hosting.

Doug Woods

Jens

11-04-2008, 06:32 PM

.....The VIP buses are warm.

Well, if they really are "VIP" buses, then sign me up for the bus with the best hookers and booze :)

Phlyan Pan

11-04-2008, 07:20 PM

Maybe we should go back to starting events at 6pm and run to 7am. I don't see a ton of TV coverage except you tube,or big buck sponsors, so there's no need to worry about sunlight for filming. Not alot of mountian bikers out in the woods at 2am to worry about, I'm guessing. All the bright lights on the cars "might" clue in the few people(Deer Jackers, Those with an intrest in a local still) out at 3am in the middle of nowhere to pay attention and/or stay away since their activities might not be 100% legal.

My 2 cents.

Sean Gallagher

First time I read that I was like "yeah right". The more I read it, the more I'm like "yeah...that's right!" There are definitely some unique challenges from an organizer and safety standpoint, but do the benefits outweigh the challenges? The only real night rallying I've been involved in was marshaling at STPR and we had some spectator control issues because of the "lubrication" involved and the darkness definitely exacerbated the issue but not starting until really late would probably solve that fairly well. I don't know if this would work, but if some organizer wants to try within a 10 hour drive or so of me, count me and my radio in to work it.

Eric Burmeister

11-04-2008, 08:12 PM

So let's list pros and cons of night stages vs. day stages.

Night stages--pros:

-Less hiker conflicts (folks don't hike or mt. bike or even horseback ride at night...much)
-Less ORV conflicts (folks don't ride dirt bikes and or ATV's much at night compared to day)
-Less road traffic conflicts (less motorists needing to get to town for milk. Less motorists out blueberry picking.)
-More challenging timeline for teams. (Unless you're a modern rallywuss.)
-Local based stage crews could work on Friday and still get to the stages in time for their stages.
-Oncoming traffic visibility (you can see oncoming lights thru the woods long before you see a vehicle)

Cons:

-Sux for TV (which doesn't matter when you don't have TV)
-Harder to manage crowd control/spectator areas (but you will probably have less speccies in the first place...which American Rallying has STILL not decided whether is good or bad.)
-More challenging to workers (?)
-Extrication of vehicles can be more challenging.
-Bars are closed at 7am when the rally finishes.

Pro or con? Less spectators. (that's a subject that's been rehashed in a thousand threads already)

Help me out here. Add your thoughts.

Joe Average

11-04-2008, 08:52 PM

I see no cons except the Bar deal.
Tail Gate Party at the finish? It's always noon somewhere!
Less spectators = pro. Only the true hard core rally fan will endure the wee hours to see a streak of HID's and glow of rotors at 3am. Less drunk *******s.
I've worked a ton of rallys in the...
1-rain
2-cold
3-snow
And guess what? I dried out and warmed up when I was done with my job on the stage or at the control I worked. And still worked other events in the...
1- 100 degree heat
2- dust
3- mosiquitoes ( or however you spell them).

Modern Rallywuss. I like that Sir Lurch!

Sean Gallagher

Joe Average

11-04-2008, 09:26 PM

Hey! What's with the swear filter? I thought we were all adults?
At least 73% of us anyway.
I didn't say anything I didn't say in 7th grade.

Sean Gallagher

Phlyan Pan

11-05-2008, 04:09 AM

Carl S

11-05-2008, 05:13 AM

Cons-if you're using roads that are inhabited....yes people are not going to be out getting milk and whatnot, but somehow I don't think they'll like the idea of rally cars roaring by their house at 3am. I think noise complaints would occur, not just on stage but on transits too probably. Let's face it, the cars aren't quiet.

New rule for quieter cars could take care of that?

Con - less workers will want to stay out all night
Con - less patronage of local businesses, for example at services located in towns. They would likely have to be moved because businesses would be closed and people sleeping. Which may lower community acceptance.

Though I'm all for 7pm-7am rallying, it does have its own unique set of logistics challenges to overcome.

Phlyan Pan

11-05-2008, 06:58 AM

New rule for quieter cars could take care of that?

Somehow I don't think so. We're racing here. Even a completely stock car with a completely stock exhaust can sound a bit loud when it's pushed. Now picture 20-40 of them screaming by your house at 1 minute intervals at 3 AM... it would wake me up and I surely wouldn't be happy about it. + sweep cars, + course cars with flashing lights and sirens, plus all of the workers cars, .... I think it's asking for complaints.

DaveCotie

11-05-2008, 08:40 AM

Cons-if you're using roads that are inhabited....yes people are not going to be out getting milk and whatnot, but somehow I don't think they'll like the idea of rally cars roaring by their house at 3am. I think noise complaints would occur, not just on stage but on transits too probably. Let's face it, the cars aren't quiet.

Pros-if you can find roads that aren't inhabited, there's a very good chance that noone will even know you were there thus minimizing the chances of any complaints from locals. Noise related or otherwise.

Possibility...could this open us up to do recce and not have to take extra days off of work?

This is potentially the biggest problem. In Ontario the Natural Resources budgets have been slashed and their upkeep of roads is very low. Tall Pines has moved most stages on to township roads and most have residents. These residents have a big influence on the local approvals for these roads.

You are right a bunch of cars running by houses at full trot at 3 am will not make these folks very happy, even if they were made quieter!

rallytaff

11-05-2008, 10:20 AM

The topic at hand is one of the MANY reasons I stopped organizing and eventually competing. I felt so much pressure taken off after the event was done knowing that there were no incidents. It's only a matter of time that something serious will happen as much as people try to avoid it. I did not want to be part of it when it did or when it does.

Bruce Beauvais

11-05-2008, 10:59 AM

Well, if they really are "VIP" buses, then sign me up for the bus with the best hookers and booze :)

Methinks you're confusing "VIP" with politicians. Or is that just a problem south of the border?

ronsorem

11-05-2008, 11:31 AM

How interesting.

We were proceeding to the new camera location, in the second vehicle when we met the first with the cameraman coming back down the road to us. While were were conferring, having realized our shooting location was approximately 500 meters behind us, car 000 appeared. The situation was explained to them and we went to the first safe place on the road. Car 000 rudely demanded our names, even through we were traveling on a supposedly open road. We did not search for our "good spot" but pulled into the first safe spot. We were not instructed to not move but rudely ordered to stay put as if we were children.

Two quick points:
1.. I think you are referring to Car 00, that would be me, and I am unapologetic for my action. If you were to be moving on stage, between runs, I was not aware of your movement -- when I encountered the SUV (a vehicle on stage) they made no effort to pull over or stop. When we met the white pickup the SUV stopped and talked to him. As the SUV turned around and went counter course I spoke with the driver of the pickup -- by that time it was apparent you were together and both were media. His expanation of missing the shooting spot, and that it was 500 meters reverse course was accepted. I followed you to your new spot, which at that time was several corners along, and what I thought was more than "500 meters" -- but that is no matter.
2.. As to requesting ID, I did so to be certain you were to be allowed into the stage. In the heat of knowing the rally was ready to start, and that Car 0 would be on stage very soon, my "instruction" to stay put was to the point -- you should not stray from this spot.

There was no intent to treat you like children. But you should have been safely off the route when Car 0 arrived.

[QOUTE] Count me as a former rally worker. Done, finished, flame away, I love the sport but am done with working to make to happen.

I have worked approximately 10 events in various areas, mostly with spectators. I competed in the early 80's as a co-driver. I am not some newbie to rallying. No more, this is one person driven from working rallies by the treatment I have received.[/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate that you have stated that course. Most of us are "former" competitors and have encounterd dangerouse conditions on stage. For myself, I work with media crews at every event that have not quite gotten everything in its perfect spot. But this incident should not be reason for you to quit. Your account of the "well known" stage rally driver and the abuse upon you is NOT what happened at PFR. I stated my direction, you complied, all was well when I left as Car 00. What ensued when Car 0 arrived should have been resolved earlier -- you should not have been on the stage road -- period.

No flame, no abuse, simply the truth that there sould not be folks on the stage when Pace arrives.

I appreciate TV2GO and all their work to promote rally in North America. I hope you reconsider.

Lee S

11-05-2008, 08:19 PM

I echo Ron's comments about the Media incident on Thynne #2 @ PFR. Car #00 contacted net control, informed them of the media situation, location and instructions. Per the instruction of Net Control (the event organizer in this case), Car #0 (me) was dispatched to Pace the stage as normal. When I arrived at the media location, I was shocked to find two people walking in the stage road. They informed me that they had to set up signs before they could shoot. I called into net control for instructions and was asked to insist that the media hurry up and I was asked to wait until I felt they were safe. I informed the media crew that they were holding up the start of the stage and they were to expedite their set-up work.

They continued to set-up signs at a relaxed pace, no hustle. When they were complete with signage and only had camera locations to set, I departed and completed the stage. Although I don't really like it, I have been asked to allow media some leeway regarding camera locations.

I was informed by the crew that they were listening into net control via radio. My question is why did they not contact net control for permission and request a delay for their movement?

I informed one of the Event Stewards and the National Manager of the incident on Thynne 2. They both indicated that they would speak to the media team.

Fast forward to AMR Stage about two hours later. The "Brand Manager" contacted Net Control and asked if media could enter the stage backwards to set up. Net control referred them to Car #0 (me) for permission as I was on seen and Car #000 & 00 had completed their runs. I informed them how much time they had to conduct they set up activities (about 8 minutes I believe). They agreed and then contacted me via net control when they were done. AMR is a very short stage that has well controlled access. This worked out great and I complement the Brand Manager for his actions.

BTW, I think this is a great discussion. I want the same thing as everybody here. So, in order to offer a solution to this particular media movement issue, I would like to suggest that the media meet with the event organizer and the Pace Team before the event and inform them of their plans and movement schedule. I know you have a plan, so why not share it. In this case, an acceptable delay could have been reviewed and probably approved without much discussion or heart burn. My second recommendation is to get your Ham license and learn to use the radio network. Monitoring just does not work all the time. There must be two-way communication. PFR has an excellent radio network (thanks Eric & Lynn). Let's use it to our safe advantage.

I, too, appreciate the national film crews and their contribution to the sport. Since they are paid professionals, I look to them to act like paid professionals. I am a volunteer event worker just like all the others, yet I have an elevated responsibility as the last eyes on the course. The support of the event organizers (Thanks Paul, Thanks Kieth) is key. Their support and faith in my calls is key as well.

Please consider my suggestions.

Lee Sorenson
Team Fugawi?

Morison

11-05-2008, 08:28 PM

I, too, appreciate the national film crews and their contribution to the sport. Since they are paid professionals...
Just as a point of interest - the camera operators are paid but they have volunteers, like Dan, working with them to help make sign placement easier and faster. Next year's plans involve a change to the signage that will hopefully make this even easier to implement.

AlanO

11-07-2008, 06:44 AM

Hi all,

Can anyone involved with the PFR media "incident" please email me privately? We'd like to get all sides of the story.

Thanks

alan (att) tv2go [dott] com

Phlyan Pan

11-07-2008, 08:37 AM

chmsam

11-07-2008, 11:34 AM

I hope what I have seen meets the standard of "reasonable expectations," or however you want to put it. While there is always a need for vigilance (i.e.: always expect the unexpected), what I have done/seen done/helped out with, goes like this:

Several days before the event, notification letters are posted on a cabins, houses, and the like, and usually also on gates to privately owned camping areas.

On the day of the event, if not on the day before, the stage captain and/or part of the crew works the stage from start to finish, putting up banner at all intersections, gates, trails, and wherever paths are noted. We also double check all the RI's, especially leaving notifications on any vehicles found along the stage (these are also noted in a copy of the route book. Stage worker routes I have used have a lot of additional and useful information in them.

Several hours before the stage is to be opened, it is run through again to be sure that all the banner is in place and that the vehicles found previously are either gone, moved, or that net knows about them.

Workers are positioned at every TC. At this time not only are their vehicles (if any) checked to be sure that they are well off the stage but usually positioned to provide, if not a buffer, at least some sign that indicates even to the biggest yutz that, hey, maybe something is going on here and I have to stop and find out what or I will not be able to get by.

Workers at both the start and end of stage set up so that they can provide a buffer for vehicles coming into the area before they should be able to enter the stage.

If a stage is to be reused, either backward or just run twice in the same direction, as many people as possible, whether working, spectating, camping, etc., are notified that the stage is to be considered hot until the sweep vehicles come through, and that the sweep vehicle will be running with a flashing green light to indicate that the stage is now open again. Even after sweep reaches the end of stage, we do not allow traffic into the stage until we have cleared it with sweep and/or the net. Most workers, especially rookies have this drummed into them, and usually it is suggested that if they are at all unsure, it is best to wait until they see the stage captain and/or other experienced workers go through after the sweep vehicle to consider leaving.

This is what we do at STPR and I would imagine that there are other measures as well. It's worked pretty well but we always expect exceptions. Also it is important to note that STPR has a long history with the locals and they are pretty well versed on what goes on for the weekend and most of them know enough to ask before approaching a TC. That (having cooperation from locals who know what's what) is the biggest help of all. To that end, the press and the program give a fair amount of detail about what the rally is about and what to expect, but most importantly they provide a lot of safety information.

Maybe I could sum that last part up by saying we love the Chamber of Commerce and the local paper, and they seem to love us, too. That really helps all the way around, but it also makes life safer and easier for all concerned.

ronsorem

11-07-2008, 11:51 AM

How did this go from "let's figure out why we have incursions on a hot stage so we can make our roads safer"....to "let's hash out a specific incident but not talk about improving the situation"?
So...how do we make the roads safer? Rules, procedures, or otherwise?

I quite agree. The PFR "media incident" was a non-event. It was not a hot stage at that point. My original post only mentioned the "vehicle on stage" as a portion of several examples.

To get back on point, communication would be a key element. From somewhere very early in the thread, the "Marshal every 100 meters" aspect can be somewhat eased with better communication between those who are on stage. Flying Finish to STOP, and ATC to START are typically FRS or GMRS radio and not tied directly to the Net. Recruiting more Road Marshals as licensed Amatuer Radio Operators (HAMs) will be a good start to keeping a taught communications link throughout the stage. At the very least this can provide for an alert that some incursion has happened, and that the stage be halted for safety, until the intruder is located or cleared.

While this doesn't physically prevent a vehicle from getting on stage, at the very least we all know about and can act accordingly to keep the rally safe.

Okay, there is one suggestion. Let's continue with some more.

Ron
K7RDS

ajax

11-07-2008, 11:58 AM

Bruce

11-07-2008, 09:02 PM

So...how do we make the roads safer? Rules, procedures, or otherwise?

One thing we need is lead car guys like Ron and Lee who take their jobs VERY seriously and know they're not out there for a fun drive down the stage. They look at every detail on the stage, and are not above getting crabby when things don't measure up. They are the last look at the safety of the stage and have final responsibility for whether it can be run. If they have a choice between being nice and being safe, there's no choice. These guys prerun the stage when possible, and have a checklist of where every marshal and banner is.

I could tell horror stories about lead car teams...but I won't. We could reduce our risk by learning from these guys...and a few other teams that are just as good...and being sure TRAINED marshals man our courses.

Bruce

starion887

11-09-2008, 06:24 AM

Keith brings up another VERY valid point..
Do night stages have a negative side when it comes to speedy rescue ops for a car off or injured crew, and can conditions like poor visibility, bad weather (impossible for rescue hely to fly in bad weather at night), slippery roads, magnify that?
Also workers staying out in the freezing weather at night, in the middle of nowhere, that's not very safe for them.
Many countries in Europe have banned night stages and in places like New Zealand teams don't even have light pods provisions for their cars. If there is an event that is delayed and runs at the limits of daylight (rare), they just stop it and call it the race at that point..
It could be insurance mandated, I'm not sure 100%.
I personally think that night stages have a special flair and make our motorsport very unique. Winning the last event with a strong effort on the first night was VERY rewarding, just because it was at night.
But is safety for competitors and workers reduced during night stages especially with weather involved? What does everyone think?

Poor weather occurs in day as well as night so some flights are limited at any time of the day; night would totally prohibit most night flight and helo landings except at the local airport or a local hosital IF they had a lit landing pad which is not always the case at a rural hospital.

On the other hand, most local rescue folks are well equipped to work day or night because that is what they have to deal with in reality. So, IMO that is a non-issue. As for non-injury extractions, all the ones I have a been involved with over the years (as tower or towee) went just fine. And the one incident where we got left on a stage by the organizers could have happened at any time.

Volunteer time at night is 1 of our 2 biggest concenrs at RWV; the other is drunks. Most heavy drinking starts after noon, and by nightfall is when they start becoming a problem. So, while the overall movement of folks is lower at night, the ones out there are ususally more problematic to deal with after dark. Pick your poison!

Regards,
Mark B.

chmsam

11-09-2008, 08:26 AM

Night stages mean less workers, less eyes on what is going on and what spectators are doing, and many times more questions for which answers are few and far between.

I do miss seeing cars at speed in the dark but do not miss many long hours of standing alone in the woods in pitch black. Even with radio contact to the end of stage from a timing line -- and no, the timing line equipment signal does not always reach the finish control 100% of the time, so we still need backup timing at the finish line -- and radios are not 100% reliable, anyone who does not get burnt out after 5 or 6 hours alone in the dark is not human. It goes from boring to way too much to do and then back to boring an amazing number of times. Add in a bear, bobcat, skunk, etc. and also the weather changing about every ten minutes just on a lark for mother nature's sense of humor, and if that still sounds appealing to someone, they can have it with my blessing. I always had a scanner with me so I could monitor the net without adding chatter, and I was one of the best informed workers on the stage, but it was still never enough information. Delays are bad enough in the dark but without reliable information as to why, the rumor mills fill up the net and confuse the snot out of everyone.

There are a lot of other factors aside from being older and grumpier, and most importantly not being in a car running the stage, but those are enough. So, no, I do not miss night stages all that much. Plain & simple, over the years it became too much of a PITA for many reasons.

Adrian Wintle

11-13-2008, 10:50 AM

Poor weather occurs in day as well as night so some flights are limited at any time of the day; night would totally prohibit most night flight and helo landings except at the local airport or a local hosital IF they had a lit landing pad which is not always the case at a rural hospital.

Not necessarily true. They brought the helo down on the highway at night (or very close to night) at Ojibwe in 2004. Admittedly, the weather was perfect, it was just quite dark.

Adrian

Bruce

11-13-2008, 11:59 AM

Not necessarily true. They brought the helo down on the highway at night (or very close to night) at Ojibwe in 2004. Admittedly, the weather was perfect, it was just quite dark.

Adrian

Dunno about where you're from, but around here, these chopper pilots can set down about anyplace their rotors will clear. Local LEO and EMS folks know how to light an area for them...and so do the hospitals. And if they couldn't fly in bad weather, they'd be idle most of the year in Minnesota. :)

That said, emergency help is always easier to get in the daylight.

Bruce

flatOVERcrest

11-13-2008, 03:28 PM

This is a very interesting quote from (I assume) a worker.
Thanks.

Night stages mean less workers, less eyes on what is going on and what spectators are doing, and many times more questions for which answers are few and far between.

I do miss seeing cars at speed in the dark but do not miss many long hours of standing alone in the woods in pitch black. Even with radio contact to the end of stage from a timing line -- and no, the timing line equipment signal does not always reach the finish control 100% of the time, so we still need backup timing at the finish line -- and radios are not 100% reliable, anyone who does not get burnt out after 5 or 6 hours alone in the dark is not human. It goes from boring to way too much to do and then back to boring an amazing number of times. Add in a bear, bobcat, skunk, etc. and also the weather changing about every ten minutes just on a lark for mother nature's sense of humor, and if that still sounds appealing to someone, they can have it with my blessing. I always had a scanner with me so I could monitor the net without adding chatter, and I was one of the best informed workers on the stage, but it was still never enough information. Delays are bad enough in the dark but without reliable information as to why, the rumor mills fill up the net and confuse the snot out of everyone.

There are a lot of other factors aside from being older and grumpier, and most importantly not being in a car running the stage, but those are enough. So, no, I do not miss night stages all that much. Plain & simple, over the years it became too much of a PITA for many reasons.

flatOVERcrest

11-13-2008, 03:34 PM

Dunno about where you're from, but around here, these chopper pilots can set down about anyplace their rotors will clear. Local LEO and EMS folks know how to light an area for them...and so do the hospitals. And if they couldn't fly in bad weather, they'd be idle most of the year in Minnesota. :)

That said, emergency help is always easier to get in the daylight.

Bruce

Bruce, do organizers in RA events (especially the ones run in more remote areas) have medical helis in phone or radio stand-by for emergency situations?
Please don't misunderstand my question.
I really don't know, but as a licensed competitor I'd like to know.

RichardM

11-13-2008, 06:24 PM

It is a part of the safety plan to notify the nearest emergency services before the event and to have the contact information readily at hand during the event. This is above and beyond the EMTs at the event.

So while the direct answer to your question Alex, is no, we do not have the pilots sitting in the chopper waiting to go and monitoring our radio net, we do have contact with the person who does have the contact with the medivac units.

At the Big Bend Bash, perhaps the most remote rally held in the US, Roger Gibson did contact the pilot before hand and made sure he understood what we were doing.

Bruce

11-13-2008, 07:20 PM

I can't speak for all the Rally America events, as I haven't seen their safety plans, but at Ojibwe, the setup is much like what Richard describes. There are not enough helicopters available to have one dedicated to the event (even if we could afford it) but one can be in the air within minutes after the call...which is, initially at least, by radio.

I very much suspect that all the National events, at any rate, have such a setup. It would seem reasonable that wherever you see an ambulance, they can call their dispatcher, who can summon a chopper. Maybe some of the organizers will chime in here.

Bruce

chmsam

11-13-2008, 07:50 PM

This is a very interesting quote from (I assume) a worker.
Thanks.

Yep, with about 20 years experience. Forgive me for being long winded, but of course anything that can be listed in a post here about securing a stage is only the very tip of the iceberg. I'd like to beat this into the head everyone who even thinks about rally. What it boils down to is pretty much the same as preparing for battle -- you don't plan for what you think is going to happen, you plan for what might happen. Also, you get very creative with imagining what might happen and try to imagine every possibility. You consider the limitations -- terrain, equipment, personnel, etc., etc. You consider and remember all of this and learn to juggle it all while you are on the run.

In a nutshell, you play a lot of "what happens if..." and just do the best you can.

Night stages make this far, far more complicated. I can do them and very well thank you, and have done them for more years than I can remember, but if I never have to do another that might be OK, too. I guess I could best put it that old age has not made me grumpy as much as it has made me consider a lot more cost/benefit/risk equations. That and really liking to be someplace warm, dry, and with at least a little light around.

My goals for being a worker on any level are basically these: securing the safety of workers (#1 if for no other reason than you can't keep people safe if your people are out of commission), spectators (bad mojo just thinking about this), locals (ditto), and competitors (who are the best protected but absolutely still need to be watched over). All of this is more work at night but at any time, on any rally, we need every worker we can get. There especially are never enough the ones who are awake, alert, and doing what they need to do all of the time.

Eh, enough of the soapbox. I just hope all of this makes some sense.