How to keeping low-budget teams in Rally [Archive]

J Cox

07-17-2006, 08:29 AM

It seems clear, based on responses to my last post that many of the lowest-budget teams have/are getting priced out of stage rally.

I hope we all agree this is not good.

So, what would it take to keep you (low-budget teams) from leaving, and keep new low-budget teams excited about getting in?

Yes cheaper gas is the biggie, but let's assume for now that that is not possible.

Here are a few ideas, but please do not limit yourself to these:

-More events in your area- Is your problem that fixed costs make your per-event cost too high (all the fixed annual costs belts, helmets, fire ext, insurance, safety updates, hauler, trailer, spares and tool ownership, etc.)?

-Lower cost events - We can't make stage rally much cheaper, but we could increase focus on rally sprints. Rally Sprints designed specifically for low total cost (not just low entry fee) could offer no need for computer, crew, co-driver, route book, lights, etc.). These are also available closer to metro areas than big-mileage stage rallies.

-New types of events - To go even cheaper, perhaps closed venue (no public roads used) events could negotiate lower insurance rates (the big cost problem)? Cheaper still could be a circuit type event with lower car construction standards (allowing old rally cars, road race, and Ice Race cars) that would require no tree contact and run-off areas etc. What about the rally equivalent of a series of "track days" at a closed safe venue like an off-road track or road cousre infield? No timing, scoring, trophies, just driving fast on a big wide dirt track.

-More value from existing events - What would make current stage events worth spending the required money for you? See yourself on TV? Post-event private produced crude video you could buy? Bring back beer and smoking at service? Anything?

Jim Cox
#558

JC_595

07-17-2006, 08:35 AM

Bring BACK beer?

ummm... ok. :D

Flyboy

07-17-2006, 11:53 AM

-More events in your area- Is your problem that fixed costs make your per-event cost too high (all the fixed annual costs belts, helmets, fire ext, insurance, safety updates, hauler, trailer, spares and tool ownership, etc.)?

-Lower cost events - We can't make stage rally much cheaper, but we could increase focus on rally sprints. Rally Sprints designed specifically for low total cost (not just low entry fee) could offer no need for computer, crew, co-driver, route book, lights, etc.). These are also available closer to metro areas than big-mileage stage rallies.

-New types of events - To go even cheaper, perhaps closed venue (no public roads used) events could negotiate lower insurance rates (the big cost problem)? Cheaper still could be a circuit type event with lower car construction standards (allowing old rally cars, road race, and Ice Race cars) that would require no tree contact and run-off areas etc. What about the rally equivalent of a series of "track days" at a closed safe venue like an off-road track or road cousre infield? No timing, scoring, trophies, just driving fast on a big wide dirt track.

-More value from existing events - What would make current stage events worth spending the required money for you? See yourself on TV? Post-event private produced crude video you could buy? Bring back beer and smoking at service? Anything?

Jim Cox
#558

Let's see, in order:

- Fixed costs aren't the problem, it's event costs. Entry fees (clubs aren't bad, but nationals are really out of line), Tires (evos eat tires), fuel (tow and race), hotel rooms, etc... As long as I don't smack it, my car actually holds up pretty well from event to event. From that standpoint, it's a pretty cost effective car to run. It's the consumables that kill...

- Unless they were in my backyard, rallysprints have no interest for me. I still have most of the costs of a normal event (travel, hotel, etc..), but way less stage miles. Why not just save all the hassle and run rallycross instead?

- If rally were held in closed venues, or on circuits, I wouldn't rally. Instead I would just go race our local CORR series (similar costs, way more exposure and sponsorship being floated around). Rally is CROSS COUNTRY RACING. It's not drifting, it's not circuit racing, and it's not autocross. It's about who can get from point A to point B the fastest. Many of the old timers have been lamenting about the lost aspects of the sport, such as extended night time running, rough roads, roving service, etc... They have a point. When does the sport cease to become Rally? If you keep dumbing down the sport to make it cheaper, sooner or later you'll spiral into rally cross. At some point you have to draw a line and preserve what you have. (BTW, all the CORR guys want to go rallying)

- What would make an event more valuable to me is exposure. I'm putting on a hell of show, get someone out there to see it! This doesn't mean that I'll only do nationals where there are TV cameras and what not. Club events can drum up all kinds of hoopla if they really tried. Look at 100AW before it became a national. All events, but especially club events, need to do a better job of local promotion. This isn't easy, especially for already overworked organizers, but the alternative is dying and cancelled events. Take your pic. I have a ton of ideas for locally marketing events, and I'd be happy to share them if people are really interested.

Jim, I'm not trying to shoot down your thread, I'm just looking at things from a different perspective. Instead of looking for ways to make the sport less expensive, why not look for ways to allow more people to afford to compete. In other words, instead of knocking $500 off an entry fee (and removing the associated value, such as stage milage or notes from the event), why not find a way to put an extra $500 dollars in everybody's pocket? The net financial result to the competitor is the same, but he gets to enjoy a higher quality event.

DEM

J Cox

07-17-2006, 12:26 PM

Let's see, in order:

Jim, I'm not trying to shoot down your thread, I'm just looking at things from a different perspective. Instead of looking for ways to make the sport less expensive, why not look for ways to allow more people to afford to compete. In other words, instead of knocking $500 off an entry fee (and removing the associated value, such as stage milage or notes from the event), why not find a way to put an extra $500 dollars in everybody's pocket? The net financial result to the competitor is the same, but he gets to enjoy a higher quality event.

DEM

Good points Dennis, but to be honest, you're not the type of team I'm worried about keeping in the game. You are/were not one of the lowest budget teams (you did some distant events, some Nationals, ran an EVO, etc.). You could probably still be rallying regularly if you were content to do it in a basic P-class Golf .

I'm not proposing we discuss saving rally such that we call all afford to rally AWD-turbo (although that would be nice), I'm just hoping there's a solution for the regional guy/gal on the $5-$10K/yr. budget.

Jim Cox
#558

Bjorn240

07-17-2006, 12:30 PM

Jim,

I think single-venue events are part of the answer. Run a 4 mile stage four times, and call it a day. This is what the vast majority or rallies in Sweden are like. Registration 0800, Tech 0900. FCO 1100. FCI 1600. One road, one landowner, etc.

Don't get rid of the co-drivers, btw. My first team might not have run without my contributions...

- Christian

JB Niday

07-17-2006, 01:36 PM

I agree w/ Christian. Think smaller venue... less infrastructure, smaller committee, reused a couple of times per year, and maybe even closer to population centers (shorter tow).

Carl S

07-17-2006, 02:01 PM

More closer events. I know I'm in a good spot where I'm at, LSPR is 0 hours, SD is 7, Ojibwe/Headwaters/Shooting Star are 8ish, and Magnum Opus is 3. But if they were all within 3 hours I'd be able to do them all more frequently.

Now if I were any good I'd want the events to have more value, more marketable for getting more sponsors. More more more!

J Cox

07-17-2006, 02:57 PM

I agree w/ Christian. Think smaller venue... less infrastructure, smaller committee, reused a couple of times per year, and maybe even closer to population centers (shorter tow).

Excellent, we are thinking about the same thing here.

JB/Doug, what are the chances we could negotiate insurance fee reductions for the following venue conditions:

-Closed venue - Private and/or fenced property

-Single landowner

-"Safe course" - No trees, concrete, bridge rail, or other unforegiving hazards within XX feet of the course.

-"Track venue" - Run-off areas, shock absorbing barriers, fire and resuce within sight, etc.

Bob Olson and I were talking, and he made a great point: We should be really focusing on existing motorsports venues (circle tracks, MX, etc.) since they already have our biggest problems solved (insurance and land use permits for our activity) as fixed costs for their operation such that our money is purely extra income for them if we run weekends they couldn't book for something else. Most are already close to metro areas. Many are struggling financially (to cover their increasing fixed costs). I'd guess it would be relatively easy to talk at least one local track into at least a winter event to try to concept.

Anyone got connections at a track with potiential for enough good mileage to get even the bigger local teams to consider entering?

Isn't this basically what Parps is doing in WI? Dave, you got any comments?

Jim Cox
#558

JB Niday

07-17-2006, 03:09 PM

breon

07-17-2006, 04:01 PM

I think we should clear up the definitions of some common terms when talking about these low budget events, as it may affect who sanctions the event.

C1 Stage Rally - A series of special stages, connected with low speed transits. These stages would be run on roads, trails, paths, or two-tracks that have been closed to the public. Think mini stage rally.

RallySprint - A series of stages, where the start and finish are near each other to facilitate multiple runs. These stages would usually be located on private property. Think RallyCross on steroids.

CircuitRally - Door-to-door racing in rally-like cars on a stadium-like closed course. Think Ice Racing meets CORR (without the CORR budget).

I would be willing to help chair, work, run any of the above events.

Flyboy

07-17-2006, 04:44 PM

Good points Dennis, but to be honest, you're not the type of team I'm worried about keeping in the game. You are/were not one of the lowest budget teams (you did some distant events, some Nationals, ran an EVO, etc.). You could probably still be rallying regularly if you were content to do it in a basic P-class Golf .

Jim Cox
#558

You'd be surprised at some people's budgets Jim. I was blown away to find out that my average budget per event was the same as a local P-class team! I did the low-buck, 2wd thing last season, and I didn't save any money. Entry fees are still entry fees. Bondo and body shops cost the same whether you have an STI or a Focus. Peltors and HANS cost the same regardless of what class your in. We all use the same notes. Get the idea.

It disturbs that you don't consider it important to keep me (or people like me) "in the game."

DEM

breon

07-17-2006, 05:43 PM

Greg Donovan

07-17-2006, 08:26 PM

i was talking about rallysprints and C1s a while back in the organiser forum. what i learned was that rallysprints and C1s will only work if they are very close to where your competitor base is.

C1s and rallysprints are hard to do because the extra costs are the same as they are for a regular rally if they are too far away and require hotel stays.

how much more length can we get the cannon falls rallycross site?

i honestly dont think there is anything we can do to keep people w/out a good chunk of cash in the sport for very long if they want to do more than 2 events a year.

DEM is right about exposure. the whole sport needs more exposure. i am really curious about what will happen after the X Games.

J Cox

07-17-2006, 08:34 PM

You'd be surprised at some people's budgets Jim. I was blown away to find out that my average budget per event was the same as a local P-class team! I did the low-buck, 2wd thing last season, and I didn't save any money. Entry fees are still entry fees. Bondo and body shops cost the same whether you have an STI or a Focus. Peltors and HANS cost the same regardless of what class your in. We all use the same notes. Get the idea.

It disturbs that you don't consider it important to keep me (or people like me) "in the game."

DEM

Dennis,

Sorry, my poorly typed post must have read wrong (you know you're one of my rally buddies). I DO consider it important to keep you (and everyone else for that matter) "in the game", I just didn't think you were one of those whose rally future was in question, so I wasn't putting you in the group I was most concerned about.

Regarding costs, your posts confuse me a bit, on one hand you say your EVO ate tires and other comsumables at a tremendous rate, but now you seem to be saying it doesn't cost much more to run an EVO. Your may have had an apples to oranges comparison since you were renting your 2WDs vs. owning your EVO. Whatever the case, there are much cheaper ways to rally than those you've chosen, but it means you likely would be giving up running up front (and I fully understand not wanting to give that up). I ran the same 4 tires all last year (6 nationals?, 2 regionals?, maybe 6 Rally-x?), no HANS, used Peltor, G-Force harnesses, used seats, no crew, etc. I also save a lot of money by never really washing the rally vehicle. ;)

Jim Cox
#558

J Cox

07-18-2006, 06:01 AM

Jim,
Can we get together after Aug 7? Tuesday is my last office day until then (I leave for Maine on Wednesday morning and go straight from Maine to X Games) and I have tons of details to wrap up here.

But, last year Doug and I decided to make the sanction/insurance cost for Coef 1 events as low as possible... something like $47/car insurance and $5/car sanction fee.
J.B.

JB,

I'll try to remember to look you up after X-Games.

Just for the sake of clarity, when I was talking about negotiating lower insurance rates, I was talking about negotiating with the insurance underwriter, not just trying to squeeze RA to lower what it charges organizers.

Jim Cox
#558

Flyboy

07-18-2006, 06:28 AM

Dennis,

Sorry, my poorly typed post must have read wrong (you know you're one of my rally buddies). I DO consider it important to keep you (and everyone else for that matter) "in the game", I just didn't think you were one of those whose rally future was in question, so I wasn't putting you in the group I was most concerned about.

Regarding costs, your posts confuse me a bit, on one hand you say your EVO ate tires and other comsumables at a tremendous rate, but now you seem to be saying it doesn't cost much more to run an EVO. Your may have had an apples to oranges comparison since you were renting your 2WDs vs. owning your EVO. Whatever the case, there are much cheaper ways to rally than those you've chosen, but it means you likely would be giving up running up front (and I fully understand not wanting to give that up). I ran the same 4 tires all last year (6 nationals?, 2 regionals?, maybe 6 Rally-x?), no HANS, used Peltor, G-Force harnesses, used seats, no crew, etc. I also save a lot of money by never really washing the rally vehicle. ;)

Jim Cox
#558

Yeah Jim, I get ya. Don't worry bud. It just that not everyone else here does, and I want to clarify things. The internet really is a poor substite for BS in the bar. Actually, the fact that you weren't worried about my participation because it was already taken as a given is somewhat disconcerting as well. I need a life! :)

Now, if people want to insist that I'm some kind of rich playboy who graces your presence periodically with my super car, go right ahead. But the reality is that most people probably wouln't be able to rally a VW Rabbit on my income. Sometimes, you don't need money if you have determination.

DEM

tinyrally

07-18-2006, 07:59 AM

Bring BACK beer?

ummm... ok. :D

WOW....LMFAO

Hit the nail on the head my friend

Eric Burmeister

07-18-2006, 08:23 AM

You know, recently the Detroit round of the AMA Pro Supermoto series (think 2 wheeled rally cars) got it's permits pulled from the Palace of Auburn Hills (Detroit Pistons, etc.) and they quickly were able to put together one of the best venues on the series at Waterford Hills Roadracing track.

Check out the paved/dirt combo layout:
www.detroitsupermoto.com

Just posting to show an example of a track thinking outside the box.

Eric

PS...supermoto rocks. As funding dries up for 2wd teams in rallying, I will be forced to spend more time back on 2 wheels on 2 local supermoto tracks.

Here's Mickey Dymond at Detroit.

http://alphado.net/galleries/portfolio/Detroit_Supermoto/DSM_33.jpg

breon

07-18-2006, 10:32 AM

I received this clarification from JB. It's nothing too different from what I posted, but it helps clear up the terms more.

"When Rally America and the SCCA sorted things out in October 2004 we agreed on a number of things. Among those was they get Rally Cross and we get stage Rallies. The problem is "Rally Sprint"... while its a commonly used term, it is not defined. We agreed that "Rally Sprint" may define a Rally Cross (no co-driver, no route book or notes of any kind) and it may define a coef 1 stage rally (full stage rally rules; prepared car, co-driver, route book, etc). They may not sanction the stage rally version and I may not sanction the rally cross version." -JB

I think we should clear up the definitions of some common terms when talking about these low budget events, as it may affect who sanctions the event.

C1 Stage Rally - A series of special stages, connected with low speed transits. These stages would be run on roads, trails, paths, or two-tracks that have been closed to the public. Think mini stage rally.

RallySprint - A series of stages, where the start and finish are near each other to facilitate multiple runs. These stages would usually be located on private property. Think RallyCross on steroids.

CircuitRally - Door-to-door racing in rally-like cars on a stadium-like closed course. Think Ice Racing meets CORR (without the CORR budget).

I would be willing to help chair, work, run any of the above events.

Bjorn240

07-18-2006, 03:41 PM

Okay, well, so I like this single-venue idea, and after Eric posted that link, I made a phone call to a rallyist friend of ours. It turns out that he ran the supermoto at that location on July 8.

His comments were that you could probably run rally cars at that track with the very same configuration if you remove the double jumps in place at the supermoto. He also said that the track owners and promoters there were the among the most accomodating people he'd ever met, and that he was sure they'd be open to listening to the idea of having a single-venue event there.

Now, mind you, hurdles still - a C1 rallysprint certainly won't bring in the kind of money that a Supermoto does in gate revenue, and perhaps the track cleaning afterwards would be expensive - but perhaps if there are enough rallyists in Detroit, this is something worth pursuing. I can only think of Mykrrrr, Lurch, and JC_595, but that doesn't mean there aren't more.

Eric you should call them and discuss.

- Christian

mattjohnston

07-18-2006, 08:17 PM

I can only think of Mykrrrr, Lurch, and JC_595, but that doesn't mean there aren't more.

There are a bunch of rallyists in the Grand Rapids area as well. An easy 2 hours from crappy D-Town, with White Castle's on the way. MINT!

DG_Rally

07-18-2006, 08:59 PM

We run on a very low budget. We're not fast but we have as much fun, if not more, than anyone out there. We know we're not going home with one of those giant cardboard checks, but what we do get are stories, in car video, and pictures from our local photographers to keep us happy. What would make it easier for us to compete more often is simple, discounts and freebies.

Here are some ideas:

Hotel Discounts - most hotels offer a group rate, why don't RA competitors and volunteers get one? Anyone? Bueller?

Series sponsorships - Tires? Almost all racing series have a tire sponsor, how about discount if we run their tires? and Safety equipment? Its one of the highest costs out there and us low-budget guys have been buying the cheap stuff, which isn't exactly good.

We don't like contingencys because we're slow and doing this for fun. So we rarely place high enough to make it worthwhile. Most sponsorship contingencies would just give us a discount on stuff that we still can't afford anyway. How about a contingency for used rally tires, that would be nice...

And finally...

Free stuff - We shell out some serious coin for stage rallies and we don't even get a crappy t-shirt. We even have to pay for the Event stickers that go above the numbers. In my opinion, thats bogus. How much does it cost to make a t-shirt? How much do those stickers cost? Hell, I would even be happy if you snuck the cost of the T-shirt and stickers into the entry fee, at least I would feel like I was walking away with something from RA after laying the cash down.

Oh yeah, it would be sweet if we did get those huge cardboard checks, even if it was only for $5.00. I've always wanted one of huge checks... Oh, and a wreath of oranges to put around my neck... and...

Dave

Eric Burmeister

07-19-2006, 02:43 AM

Scott Harvey, Evan Moen, Larry Parker, Henry Krolikowski, Mike Purzycki, Doug Shepard, Don Jankowski, Tom Young, Greg and Tom Woodside, Russ Hodges, Mike Rossey, Jeremy Butts, Bob Martin...

Yeah there are a few rallyists around Detroit.

I think Scott Harvey Jr. has spoken with Waterford about rallycrosses multiple times to no avail, but maybe we just need to put the right package together.

I have run my rally cars at that track on track days. http://pages.prodigy.net/lurch3/curbsmall.jpg Fun little track. Now that I see they are okay with tearing up the grass a bit, it may make things easier, but we'll have to try.

Remember, money talks. The Pro Supermoto race already had tickets sold for a large crowd. I'm sure the guys at Waterford did just fine on the deal. Would they bend over backwards like that for a near zero return event? Hmmm...

breon

07-19-2006, 04:12 AM

Dave,
Do you run events in MN? I know for a fact that in most cases, the organizing teams try to accomplish what you've asked for.

The Shooting Star Rally is based out of a casino. That’s cool. Not only do you have 24 access to food and stuff, but the rooms are only $55 per night. When you add up the additional discounts (food vouchers, casino coupons) the rooms turn out to be like $30 per night or something ridiculous.

Sponsorship is hard. Companies need to see a return on investment. To be honest, rally doesn’t offer a return. This is no different with tire manufacturers or seat manufacturers. That’s why contingencies work better. You buy some stuff up front, and they’ll give you some money if you get their name out there by being in the front of the pack. Although the discount option might work!

Again at Shooting Star, I got 3 free t-shirts at the catered awards banquet. That’s two freebies. Most rallies pay for some food at the end of the day.

I’ve seen the budget for some of these rallies. It’s pretty tight. We considered dropping the banquet breakfast to try to break even.

We run on a very low budget. We're not fast but we have as much fun, if not more, than anyone out there. We know we're not going home with one of those giant cardboard checks, but what we do get are stories, in car video, and pictures from our local photographers to keep us happy. What would make it easier for us to compete more often is simple, discounts and freebies.

Here are some ideas:

Hotel Discounts - most hotels offer a group rate, why don't RA competitors and volunteers get one? Anyone? Bueller?

Series sponsorships - Tires? Almost all racing series have a tire sponsor, how about discount if we run their tires? and Safety equipment? Its one of the highest costs out there and us low-budget guys have been buying the cheap stuff, which isn't exactly good.

We don't like contingencys because we're slow and doing this for fun. So we rarely place high enough to make it worthwhile. Most sponsorship contingencies would just give us a discount on stuff that we still can't afford anyway. How about a contingency for used rally tires, that would be nice...

And finally...

Free stuff - We shell out some serious coin for stage rallies and we don't even get a crappy t-shirt. We even have to pay for the Event stickers that go above the numbers. In my opinion, thats bogus. How much does it cost to make a t-shirt? How much do those stickers cost? Hell, I would even be happy if you snuck the cost of the T-shirt and stickers into the entry fee, at least I would feel like I was walking away with something from RA after laying the cash down.

Oh yeah, it would be sweet if we did get those huge cardboard checks, even if it was only for $5.00. I've always wanted one of huge checks... Oh, and a wreath of oranges to put around my neck... and...

Dave

DG_Rally

07-19-2006, 05:31 AM

Yes, I live in MN. The problem with shooting star is that its always on the same week as the 4th of July. I like to spend this week on vacation with my family, not at a rally, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'd love to do shooting star but it'll have to wait until its on a different weekend. For these reasons, I didn't know that it had discounts like this. I just look at the date and move on.

How about Headwaters? No discounts there. OFPR, none there that I remember. LSPR, same...

If there was a discount for RA license holders on anything (tires, safety equip, etc), I would be really suprised if most race teams didn't take advantage. You would think the sponsors would get more $$$ out of that than contingency stickers on our cars.

Dave
"waiting for my huge cardboard check"

Dave,
Do you run events in MN? I know for a fact that in most cases, the organizing teams try to accomplish what you've asked for.

The Shooting Star Rally is based out of a casino. That’s cool. Not only do you have 24 access to food and stuff, but the rooms are only $55 per night. When you add up the additional discounts (food vouchers, casino coupons) the rooms turn out to be like $30 per night or something ridiculous.

Sponsorship is hard. Companies need to see a return on investment. To be honest, rally doesn’t offer a return. This is no different with tire manufacturers or seat manufacturers. That’s why contingencies work better. You buy some stuff up front, and they’ll give you some money if you get their name out there by being in the front of the pack. Although the discount option might work!

Again at Shooting Star, I got 3 free t-shirts at the catered awards banquet. That’s two freebies. Most rallies pay for some food at the end of the day.

I’ve seen the budget for some of these rallies. It’s pretty tight. We considered dropping the banquet breakfast to try to break even.

Flyboy

07-19-2006, 05:49 AM

How about Headwaters? No discounts there. OFPR, none there that I remember. LSPR, same...

"

A discount at OFPR? Hah! I remember one year when they called everyone up a month before the event to tell us they were RAISING the rate by ten bucks a night. (Despite the fact we had confirmed reservations on the Credit Card).

DEM

Bruce

07-19-2006, 06:07 AM

How about Headwaters? No discounts there. OFPR, none there that I remember. LSPR, same...

While OFPR doesn't have as good hotel rates as Shooting Star, the rally rate at the two HQ motels is significantly cheaper than the regular price. Remember, August is still tourist season - without the rally, they'd likely fill up anyway...no reason to go crazy with discounts.

LSPR has a hotel discount at the HQ...and it's a pretty good one...but most low budget rallyists don't stay there. The low priced motels in the UP are on a tight margin, and don't have much room for discounts...although I hear the Super 8 gives deals to rally teams.

A rally that feeds you well is a good thing...and OFPR spends a fair amount on that.

I may be wrong, but I think the general belief among organizers is that competitors - especially low-budget ones - would rather have ten more miles of rally roads than a T-shirt. If that's NOT true, you should make sure they know it...budgets can be juggled if a shorter rally with more creature comforts is a priority.

Bruce

MN_Rallymaster

07-19-2006, 06:30 AM

DG_Rally

07-19-2006, 08:07 AM

I may be wrong, but I think the general belief among organizers is that competitors - especially low-budget ones - would rather have ten more miles of rally roads than a T-shirt. If that's NOT true, you should make sure they know it...budgets can be juggled if a shorter rally with more creature comforts is a priority.

Bruce

Whoa, whoa, whoa, who said anything about less stage miles?! I doubt budgeting a t-shirt for each competitor is going to take away from that. Like I said, add the cost of the freebie to the entry fee and don't tell us about it. Remember what your mom used to say, "It's the thought that counts."

How about discounts at other hotels other than HQ? The HQ always fill up fast and sometimes you can miss the boat.

I'm not knocking the orgainizers here, you'all do a great job. This thread asked for feedback and I'm giving it.

Dave
"where's my huge cardboard check?"

DG_Rally

07-19-2006, 08:17 AM

I think you may not have looked closely at the date for Shooting Star. I'm pretty sure that no matter what calendar you look at, the 15th of July (Shooting Star 2006's date) is not in the same week as the 4th of July.

Scheduling events are a result of many different variables.

Brad Odegard - Event Chair

Again, I realize that this year the race didn't fall on that week. But I didn't find out when it was going to happen until well after the deadline to put in my personal vacation days. So I assumed the same weekend.

I checked the website several times and there were no updates to when the event was going to happen this year. Eventually I found that it was posted on SS. Now, thats not exactly where I would expect to find the date. Not everyone checks SS.

Maybe I'm in a special situation here, but thats how it worked out for me.

Again, I'm not knocking the organizers. This is my feedback as a low budget ralliest.

Dave
"seriously, I want a huge cardboard check!"

jamesbialas

07-19-2006, 09:59 AM

http://alphado.net/galleries/portfolio/Detroit_Supermoto/DSM_33.jpg

How to keep low-budget teams in rally? Don't let them grow up to be motorcyclists.

Now that I have tasted of the two wheeled fruit, you probably won't see me on the competition side of rally anytime soon. I think I may have inadvertantly convinced my last ride to sell the rally car and buy dirtbikes as well.

Stumble into your local Yamaha dealership, sign on the dotted line for a WR450 (no money down!) and ride your brains out every weeked on the local singletrack for a teeny fraction of the cost of rally.

And I used to only use motorcycles as an excuse to avoid rallying in the summer. And then I studded my dirtbike tires...

It's too late for me, but you can help other young rallyists before it's too late. Remember, motorcycles are way more expensive than rally cars and they're very, very dangerous. Stay away from them. ;)

SMS Rallysport

07-19-2006, 11:09 AM

.....

DG_Rally

07-19-2006, 11:23 AM

.....

SMS Rallysport

07-19-2006, 12:20 PM

.....

Carl S

07-19-2006, 01:59 PM

Dave
"seriously, I want a huge cardboard check!"

Hey Dave,
I could talk to my friend Pas-T and see if he has any giant checks you could have. I'm sure he's got a bunch, and you know how good of friends we are ;)

C_Eixen

07-19-2006, 03:26 PM

I'm just starting...but I can see already that fixed costs are going to be a deciding factor in how long I keep this up.

I just added up the fixed costs for my first event:
Entry: $850
Tow rig fuel (1200 mi. @10 mpg): $350
Hotel: $250
Rally car fuel: $100-150 (not sure how much 100 octane I'll need)

That's $1500 for a weekend, and that doesn't include food, consumables (tires, oil, etc), service crew expenses, and the fact that I may have to rent a truck and trailer.

Entry fees are the number one expense, but getting to the event is number two. If there was any way organizers could make it easier for low-budget teams to share tow costs, that would definitely help.

breon

07-19-2006, 07:53 PM

What are you driving that needs 100 octane fuel? If you're just starting up, I can't imagine that you are running a car that eats race gas?!

Rally car fuel: $100-150 (not sure how much 100 octane I'll need)

Mark Holden

07-19-2006, 11:57 PM

What are you driving that needs 100 octane fuel? If you're just starting up, I can't imagine that you are running a car that eats race gas?!

I belive he's got Art Burmeister's old fire-breathing GTI. And it probably does need it.

C_Eixen

07-20-2006, 04:59 AM

I belive he's got Art Burmeister's old fire-breathing GTI. And it probably does need it.

Yep, it's Art's old car.

He said I could run 96, but I'm not low-budget enough that I need to mix fuel. Not to mention this is the lowest item on my list. If I were trying to cut expenses, I'd start at the top, not the bottom.

FrankenJetta

07-21-2006, 01:27 PM

One of the things I thought of is make it as easy as possible to rally a single event every year. Here is why.
We used to rally and have decided to give it up. But since our car is paid for, it doesn't cost much to keep it around. When an event like headwaters comes up both of us always say "Ooooh man ! It would be awesome to enter Headwaters" But then we think. "Yeah, but then we would need to get the car teched and pay for a year's membership for a single race." So we don't do it.
I know it's not THAT much in the grand scheme of things, but it's that little bit extra that would tip the scales. If we could buy a single event license and find an easy way to get the car annual teched or allow single event tech for a previously rallied car, we would be inclined to do another event.
And once we do "just one more" event, we would be that much more likely to think "well ok, maybe just one more" or "You know what, I think we should get back into this".
It wouldn't work for those who aren't on the fence, but I can think of a few drivers that would probably do Headwaters or Shooting Star every year if the step from not rallying to doing one event were a little shorter.

Another wacky idea I had, and this one is way out there, I admit. Is to find a way to setup stages so a driver could do them without a co-driver. I know, I know it's un-rally ! I agree. But I think ALOT of folks don't rally becuase it's hard to find a co-driver. This would take some creative thinking, but for club events, I'll bet it could work.

Carl S

07-21-2006, 02:40 PM

RA does single event licenses, and no more annual tech inspections. So there you go, no more excuses :P

Mark Holden

07-21-2006, 04:27 PM

If we could buy a single event license and find an easy way to get the car annual teched or allow single event tech for a previously rallied car, we would be inclined to do another event.

I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but i belive that R-A no longer requires annual tech inspections for logbooked cars.

Doesn't help on the license side, of course.

C_Eixen

07-21-2006, 06:53 PM

Another wacky idea I had, and this one is way out there, I admit. Is to find a way to setup stages so a driver could do them without a co-driver. I know, I know it's un-rally ! I agree. But I think ALOT of folks don't rally becuase it's hard to find a co-driver. This would take some creative thinking, but for club events, I'll bet it could work.

I gotta say...people who can't find a codriver aren't looking.

I know of at least three experienced codrivers who were looking for a ride at Shooting Star...and I've never even competed in a rally.

Flyboy

07-22-2006, 05:50 AM

RA does single event licenses, and no more annual tech inspections. So there you go, no more excuses :P

Actually, I think RA dropped the single event license this year. Personally, I think it's a shame. It was sooo nice last year to only have to lay down $40 for the one event I ran instead of $100+.

DEM

breon

07-22-2006, 09:23 AM

Trust me, I know that every penny counts. But if it's the additional $60 that's making or breaking your budget, then you're already cutting it too close.

I'm sure someone has already said this, the best thing that you can do is to set a budget per event, then double it. If you can still afford it, then game on. Odds are you won't spend double your budget.

Flyboy

07-22-2006, 01:17 PM

Trust me, I know that every penny counts. But if it's the additional $60 that's making or breaking your budget, then you're already cutting it too close.
.

It's psychological. It's the idea that you are being forced to buy something you don't need. The more you add things up, the more discouraged you get. Then when you see you have to buy a whole year's license for one event, you think, "**** on it." Funny...if the single event fee was $100 (and the year license was double), people probably wouldn't bitch. It's not the actual dollars, it's the idea.

DEM

mattjohnston

07-23-2006, 07:52 PM

It's psychological. It's the idea that you are being forced to buy something you don't need. The more you add things up, the more discouraged you get. Then when you see you have to buy a whole year's license for one event, you think, "**** on it." Funny...if the single event fee was $100 (and the year license was double), people probably wouldn't bitch. It's not the actual dollars, it's the idea.

DEM

For me it's the actual dollars :)

And I cut events within $50 all the time. (like, all of them)

Steve Nielsen

07-23-2006, 08:01 PM

Why do we buy a license anyway?.
what do you get for your license fee.
I raced bikes for 20 years and never had to pay more than about $20.00 for membership fees..
I realize that RA needs to make money somehow but maybe there is a more sneaky way to squeeze money from the competitors.

BlueMR2

07-25-2006, 11:28 AM

I'm one that has wanted to get started, but was never able... Co-drivers are not an issue, I've got those coming out my ears. I'm low budget, but not "no budget". Per event costs are acceptable. The thing that has kept me from being able to get started is: time. I can't afford to have someone else prep the car for me. I don't have enough time to do it myself with how quickly things change. I bought a car that was partially prepped a few years ago, only to have some of the rules change on me over the winter when I was prepping it... Rules changes would have required me to get the cage reworked and effectively made my engine setup useless (smaller restrictor that simply would NOT work with this motor). So, pretty much all the stuff that keeps being done in the name of safety is what keeps me from having the time to be able to field a car. So, I just run over to my local road course on occasion, throw them $120 for the day, and flog the car around their track instead...

Josh wimpey

07-27-2006, 09:13 AM

If there was a discount for RA license holders on anything (tires, safety equip, etc), I would be really suprised if most race teams didn't take advantage. You would think the sponsors would get more $$$ out of that than contingency stickers on our cars.

I know NASA has a discout program for membership holders---I have used the 20% Porterfield Brakes discount.

Contingencies could be nice but so far have proven fruitless---signed up but never received decals or confirmation from Racetech. Can I still collect for Rally WV? Will it do me any good if they don't make a seat that fits me? (could get one for the codriver I suppose.)

Besides contingencies in-kind don't help the same way cash does, especislly when the contingencies are for durable items and not consumables.

So, what keeps me from racing more often? Opportunity costs of course. But perception does matter.

1) Distance---I do not own a tow-rig and must borrow/rent adding huge $$$ and headache to a racing weekend
2) Entry fees---$250 per event-day (ala rally TN 2006) not $500 makes a HUGE difference. That $500 for a 2-day event covers towing and lodging if not more for a low budget team. That $500 can easliy exceed 25% of the cost of a 2-day event for a low budget team.
3) License costs---again, this is distance/location related. I want to do events close to home (Virginia), so STPR, NY, TN, Cherokee, WV...I have a NASA license becasue of the number of closeish events. There is only 1 RA event nearby--STPR but I don't want to pay the extra license fees just for one race. It is like adding $100+ to an already too high entry fee.
4) No complimentary t-shirts---seriously