Rallysprint questions

[Greg Donovan]

is it possible to pull off a 3 stage, 18 mile long rally sprint w/entry fees at or under 250 dollars?

ideally this would happen on a section of forest road w/little to no intersections and cross trails.

if you used the same 6 mile section of road 3 time you would only need two sets of start/finish workers. and if you could find a section w/no cross trials you wouldne even need marshals.

is this possible?

is 250 too high or is it too low?

[PeterSteinberg]

"Is this possible" is too simple a question.

Figure out your fixed costs, event insurance and medical coverage (ambulances / first responders) are required, and road fees are often needed.

Add in any other items you can't get for free (printing, service areas, trophies, food, service area, registration area, etc), and subtract the value of any sponsorship you can get.

Divide that by your $250 entry fee.

Do you think you can get at least that many cars to enter?

If so, then it's feasible. If not, you need to figure out how to get more sponsorship, cut costs, or get more entrants.

That's the basics for any event.

[Greg Donovan]

i wasnt considering planning an event. altough i would like to in the future.

i have no idea what any of those things cost.

just trying to figure out why there arent more rallysprints.

i would imagine there arent more because they take the same amount of work to put together as a full rally.

[MN_Rallymaster]

Greg:

Here are some numbers for you to use.. All numbers are from RA's current 2006 sanction and insurance package, road use fees are what MN organizers are seeing from the DNR, etc.

Sanction Fees: $125 for the 1st 10 cars, $5 each car over 10
Insurance Fees: $47 per car
Currently a C1 event has a RA fee ceiling of $1655 total

Road fees: Figure about $65 per mile of actual road being used.

Printing: I'd estimate about $200 for an event of the size you describe

Trophies: $100 - $300 depending on the number of classes and posistions you award, also depends on what you do for trophies.

Other costs? How about meeting room for workers? Expenses for medical, sweep and lead car teams? Course layout and setup expenses?

Lets assume 10 cars for a second.

Sanction: 125
Insurance: 470
Roads: 390
Printing: 200
Trophies: 150
Other: 400???
----------------
Total: 1735

Cost/car: 173.50

Looks like its doable, assuming our numbers are correct. The larger question is whether or not you can get a sufficient turnout for a C1 event since it is only worth 1/3 the points of a C3 event, also $250 is quite a bit of entry fee for only 18 miles of stages. You're looking about about $14/mile of competition.

Brad

[Greg Donovan]

brad, thank you for sharing those numbers. i was thinking of northern minnesota for an event like this.

if an event like this had recce the morning of the event what would that do to the printing costs? i assume the competitors would privide their own notebooks. having recce might make it more attractive to the competitors. the more i think about it it wouldnt change the printing costs would it, since you would still have to provide a tulip book for the recce wouldnt you?

here is a hypothetical scenario tell me what you think.

off the top of my head the chad's yump stage at ojibwe could be awesome for this have the start at the usual spot and have the finish at the delta just after the jump on the right hand turn of the delta. or they could continue on down the road to the left to the gravel pit and use that for the turn around area for the return trip. maybe we could even find a way to get food up there and have a huge rally party. i am sure there are even better sections over by akely that could be used this way too.

how many miles is it from the start to the jump?

when would that have to be scheduled to not conflict w/OFPR and the limits on road use?

what do you think would be a better option, lower the entry fee or increase the mileage?

200 fee w/18 miles would put it around 12 dollars and 250 w/27 miles would put it at about 10 per mile.

the more i think about this the more i would love to do it.

i vaguely recall the options for organizers that RA has as far as handling the money. how much would the organizer have to put in of thier own money up front?

what sort of things have to be paid if an event is cancelled?

feel free to send me a PM if you feel uncomfortable posting anything publicly.

[MN_Rallymaster]

Greg:

I think if you're going to go for a C1, it has to be closer to the majority of your competitors. If the competitors have to spend the coin to tow, stay in hotel, etc, they're going to want to get the most miles or points they can for that money.

This is one of the reasons why we are planning on running a 2 day double regional for Shooting Star next year. If we can offer the competitor more opportunity for miles and points for a given expenditure in towing, then you have a better chance of pulling them into the event.

So far from the discussions I've had about C1 events, it seems that it should be within about 1-2 hours drive from the cities. Schedule it in such a way that people wouldn't have to stay overnight if they didn't want to, or at the minimum so that only a sat night stay would be necessary. Getting much beyond that, and the benefit/cost ratio seems to go way down in the competitors eyes.

Obviously, everyone is different and the first thing to figure out is who your "target customer" is and then shape the location and event to fit that demographic within your abilities.

In response to your original question, the road your asking about is called "Buckboard", and it measures a total of 4.71 miles from the Delta to the county road. You'd be looking at like 4 passes to get 18 miles once you factor in some controls.

As far as funding an event, you pretty much have to get an existing club like LOL/SSAC or similar to front the money. If something is cancelled, it depends on where you are in the planning cycle. If you haven't committed to anything, cancelling usually doesn't cost anything.

Overall, you have to try and minimize the cost/mile factor to make it more attractive. But the costs outside of the entry fee are almost more important now days due to increased gas and lodging costs. As a comparison, the entry fee for Shooting Star this year would have resulted in a cost/mile of about $6.00

Brad

[Greg Donovan]

sounds like we need to get a gas station chain to sponsor an event.

i figured having it closer to the cities would be better.

[Mark Holden]

The big thing is finding roads that can be used.

For instance, I mapped out a nice C3 rally that would be run in SE Minnesota, not far from LaCrosse. It's a relatively short drive from the cities (no more than the Bunyan or White Earth forests, probably a little less), and much, much closer for the folks in WI and IL, whoch would provide a much broader competitor base.

The roads are great, narrow, well maintained, technical, huge elevation changes (at least by MN standards), some of the most fun I've ever had driving.

And it can never happen. The local landowners, while not terribly numerous, are almost all horse ranchers. My heart sank even as I was having a blast driving the roads, to see yet another ranch every couple of miles. Generally with stables right next to the roads.

We'd never get permission to close the roads. It just wouldn't happen.


There were other logistical problems (like radio coverage, hotel rooms), but those could be addressed.

So the key is to find roads that are good enough, but not too good, and in an area that can be closed to public traffic. That's the #1 thing.

#2 is location and proximity to your competitor base.

[Anders Green]

I think if you're going to go for a C1, it has to be closer to the majority of your competitors. If the competitors have to spend the coin to tow, stay in hotel, etc, they're going to want to get the most miles or points they can for that money.
Exactly. The entry fee could be $5, the rest of the weekend will still cost hundreds of dollars. So many competitors are going to be thinking "$500 plus $250 for 18 miles, or $500 plus $500 for 60 miles?" (Assuming there's some other regional rally at some other time/place.)

My personal opinion is that these sorts of economics are why there are very few areas that have had successful rallysprint series: there have to be lots of competitors based very close to the facility, and that's rare.

Cheers,
Anders

[Greg Donovan]

Exactly. The entry fee could be $5, the rest of the weekend will still cost hundreds of dollars. So many competitors are going to be thinking "$500 plus $250 for 18 miles, or $500 plus $500 for 60 miles?" (Assuming there's some other regional rally at some other time/place.)

My personal opinion is that these sorts of economics are why there are very few areas that have had successful rallysprint series: there have to be lots of competitors based very close to the facility, and that's rare.

Cheers,
Anders

i figured that was the case.

rally sprints are a great concept.

however, the logistics prevent them from being implemented.

the US is too damn big and we are too spread out. especially here in the midwest.

a effective rallysprint would need to be within 2-3 hours of 15-20 competitiors to be worth having. except for a few parts of the country that is nearly imopossible.

too bad we cant do something like a track day that allows non race cars on race tracks and allow a lower level of prep for rallysprints. but there is no difference between a stage in a 3 stage rally sprint or a full on stage rally as far as the risk factor is concerned.

[Greg Donovan]

The big thing is finding roads that can be used.

For instance, I mapped out a nice C3 rally that would be run in SE Minnesota, not far from LaCrosse. It's a relatively short drive from the cities (no more than the Bunyan or White Earth forests, probably a little less), and much, much closer for the folks in WI and IL, whoch would provide a much broader competitor base.

The roads are great, narrow, well maintained, technical, huge elevation changes (at least by MN standards), some of the most fun I've ever had driving.

And it can never happen. The local landowners, while not terribly numerous, are almost all horse ranchers. My heart sank even as I was having a blast driving the roads, to see yet another ranch every couple of miles. Generally with stables right next to the roads.

We'd never get permission to close the roads. It just wouldn't happen.


There were other logistical problems (like radio coverage, hotel rooms), but those could be addressed.

So the key is to find roads that are good enough, but not too good, and in an area that can be closed to public traffic. That's the #1 thing.

#2 is location and proximity to your competitor base.

mark, could those SE MN roads you found be used for a TSD?

[Whitsend]

Here in Colorado, we have had 2 SCCA sanctioned Rsprints and 1 put on by some local fellows in conjuction with a motorsports park. All of which took place on private property. The courses did not reflect what you might see on stage because they were short, closed loops making multiple laps. That said, it doesn't seem as though this format has much to offer.
What would be the posibility of putting on a Rsprint in conjuction with as established Stage Rally to share in some of the logistics and costs. It could be billed as a "Rookie" or "Amatuer" rally to offer a way for someone to learn more about Stage Rally: Timing controls, etc. Just a thought.

[Mark Holden]

mark, could those SE MN roads you found be used for a TSD?

Missed this until now (been moving).

Yes, they could. They would be great for it too. But someone else would have to do the routebook, I don't have the time to go, write tulips, determine CAST, recheck mileages and CAST, etc.

[Mark Holden]

What would be the posibility of putting on a Rsprint in conjuction with as established Stage Rally to share in some of the logistics and costs. It could be billed as a "Rookie" or "Amatuer" rally to offer a way for someone to learn more about Stage Rally: Timing controls, etc. Just a thought.
This may sound like I'm being condescending, I'm really not though, just walking through the way costs break down.

Let's assume Greg's goal of $250 for the C1 Rally (in old SCCA terms, a RallySprint).

Let's take a C3 rally, that's budgeted cheap, Headwaters or Shooting Star, $375.

Fixed costs:

Towing, assume approx 250 miles one way (that's Minneapolis to Mahnomen minus a little) at an optimistic 10mi/gal@$3.00/gal. That's 50 gal for the round trip at $150.

Gas for the rally car, well, that varies a lot, but if we assume a G2 car, we can probably fill a 13 gallon tank at the start of the rally, and make it all the way through. Be safe though, and assume we're going to use about another 20 gal in the rally car. Car is likely tuned to require 91oct, at $3.20/gal, or $65. Ok, the C1 guys will use a little less, but the transits will be comparable, so the difference will be modest.

Rooming, at SS06, the room cost would have been $55 fri and $75 sat. That's $135 for the event, and we can assume we'll have the crew guys sleep on the floor.

That's fixed costs of $350, without any food or beverages (you have to eat even if you don't race, right?), and ignores things like having to renew licenses, update cages, replace expired belts/helmets, new or less used rally tires, wear and tear on the tow vehicle and a hundred other little things.

So, you're looking at $350+$250=$600 for a RallySprint of, say 20 miles, or $30/mile.

Or 350+375=$725 for a 70 mile C3, for $10.35/mile.

Given that, I'd gladly pay the extra $125 for the extra 50 miles of competition, and I don't think there are many teams that would opt for the shorter event.

The economics of a C1 dictate that it must be so close to your competitors that they can tow to the event, run, and tow home on the same day for the numbers to make any sense. If it's a 50 mile tow (one way), the gas cost becomes $30, plus say $20 for the rally car. No hotel costs. Then the $250 C1 ends up at a cost of $300 for 20 miles, or $15/mile. That's still not as good a bang/buck as a C3 way up north, but the difference in cost out of pocket ($425) would make the event a lot more attractive.

If someone could find a suitable venue within even 100 miles of the Twni Cities, I think that it could happen.

Start looking :)

[rhino]

Mark,
Pm me with some detail on the roads you're talking about. I just moved to Winona, and could do some legwork.

Also, if Grand Rapids isn't too far away, there are some great roads that could be used for Rallsprints or there's enough miles to run a C3 there.
Check out the area around Sugar Lake, or there's a 10 mile road between Warba and Goodland that is the funnest road I've ever been on. It's called Feeley Forest Road. It's a cutoff between two highways, no houses, and occasional logging, so they keep it in great condition. Run that twice in each direction and there's 40 miles right there. Add the Sugar Lake roads and you could be around 80 no problem.

Ryan Johnson

[Greg Donovan]

Mark,
Pm me with some detail on the roads you're talking about. I just moved to Winona, and could do some legwork.

Also, if Grand Rapids isn't too far away, there are some great roads that could be used for Rallsprints or there's enough miles to run a C3 there.
Check out the area around Sugar Lake, or there's a 10 mile road between Warba and Goodland that is the funnest road I've ever been on. It's called Feeley Forest Road. It's a cutoff between two highways, no houses, and occasional logging, so they keep it in great condition. Run that twice in each direction and there's 40 miles right there. Add the Sugar Lake roads and you could be around 80 no problem.

Ryan Johnson

where is this magical sounding place you call sugar lake?

[rallyracer21]

where is this magical sounding place you call sugar lake?
Its south of Grand Rapids about 4 or 5 miles

[rhino]

Look in the Delorme map book, page 63, B-9.

Feeley is on page 64, about at 2.5, and in the middle of A and B, just north of Hudson Lake. They don't show the road on the map, but it that road is 10 miles long. Don't remember exactly where it comes out at, but it ends on one of the highways. Highly recomended.

[rallyracer21]

Very fun road if you ask me

[Greg Donovan]

the only problem is it is just as far away from the twin cities as HW and OFPR and would require at least one night in a hotel.

[rallyracer21]

Yes it would require one night in a hotel and yes it is just as far from the cities as hw and ofpr