LSPR 2002 Brockway Mt. Stage Plan

[Kevin D]

The Brockway Mountain Stage and its jump have become famous in the U.S. Rally community. After the 2001 Lake Superior ProRally (LSPR) and Keweenaw ClubRally, competitors, spectators, organizers, workers, and the local law enforcement raised many concerns of spectator and competitor safety. The organizing committee for the 2002 LSPR recently met to discuss the safety concerns and possible solutions.

There were two major safety concerns, people standing in the impact zone after the jump and spectators walking in and out of the stage during competition. Controlling of where people stand could possibly be accomplished with better banner placement and more marshals to keep the spectators behind it. The bigger problem is that the only way to get to the most popular jump area is to walk down the stage, and many spectators like to only watch the top cars and then leave. One competitor said, "It looked like a shopping mall parking lot, there were people on both sides of the road and a woman with a baby carriage on the outside of a corner."

We looked at many possible solutions, getting the local fire department or business community to charge spectating fees and help control traffic, mass transport of spectators, stopping after 20 cars to let people walk out, moving the finish line, not allowing anyone on the stage, and even canceling the stage entirely.

After much debate, this is the plan for the 2002 LSPR and Keweenaw ClubRally Brockway Mountain Stage:

1. This stage will be run only once.
2. Marshals will be posted after the end of the stage at the intersection of Brockway Mountain Drive and M-26, only officially credentialed Press will be allowed into the end of the stage and the "jump". Unauthorized persons attempting to gain access to the stage may be ticketed and removed.
3. Marshals will address the Press as to where they can and cannot stand. No one will be allowed past the "jump" area. All Press must stay in place until the final sweep vehicle has cleared the stage and the road is open to non-rally traffic.
4. Spectators will be allowed to walk in from the start of the stage 1/2 mile to the first major corner. No one will be allowed beyond this area. Marshals will direct the Spectators as to where they can and cannot stand.
5. All Press and Spectators must be in place 30 minutes before the First Car is scheduled to start.
6. No one will be allowed in from either end after Car "0" has entered the stage.
7. If anyone is anywhere on the stage in a place they should not be, they will be asked to move. If they choose not to, the stage will be canceled.

Our hope is that this year the spectators will show, they will follow instructions, and that they understand and respect our safety concerns. If all goes well, in future years we may once again allow spectating at the "jump". We know our plan will generate much debate in the Rally Community. Please understand the decision has been made and it is a condition of road use permission. We wanted to share the solution with you early so you may plan your working, competing, crewing, spectating and press activities for LSPR 2002 accordingly.

[Mad Mike]

Cool. Thanks! The spectators won't be real happy but if one of them gets squished on Brockway we'll all lose a lot more than one really fun stage.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com

[Mike Hurst]

>One competitor said, "It looked like a shopping mall parking
>lot, there were people on both sides

Actually, it looked more like the inside of a shopping mall!

"The new Oldmobiles are in early this year".

But seriously, I have to agree with Kevin.

I don't see how they could come up with the manpower to manage the crowd.

It's amazing how a crowd doesn't think.

If any of those individuals were standing by themselves on that hill, I don't believe they would stand on the road with cars wizzing by few feet from their noses.

[mattjohnston]

Yuck

[jeff burmeister]

Kevin;

It is a real shame that the place I consider the best spectating points in all of North America will be shut down. But we all understand that this has to be done for the safety of everyone, but it is still heart breaking.

I do hope that the organizers will find at least two other spectating areas for the hundreds of people that normally park out on Brockway that will now be displaced. You will have hundreds of extra people looking for a place to view from that have not made their way down to the hotdog feed in the past.

The overall attendance of spectators is up some 20 to 30% since last year for the entire series, and if the series is as close as it looks like it will be at the end of the year, you could have thousands of people to manage. I suggest putting in several offical spectating points and let the large number possible spectating areas dilute the crowds.

Jeff Burmeister
getting line for a press pass now

[Bruce]

Good suggestion, but finding and training the extra marshals to man these areas will be the problem. I don't know any rally that's overstaffed.

BW

[jeff burmeister]

Absolutely agree with that...

But a truly good marshall is also inventive... They always have extra marshall vests with them, a waiver sheet, wrist bands and a really good voice that can scream...

"Okay!!! Now that Everyone is well back from the Stage Road. I need three Volunteers that want to stand out here with me in this really great viewing area and play 'King of the Hill' with all of the other people wanting to be out here with us!!!"

Onsite Outsourcing is what we call this in my company...

Jeff Burmeister
SpecialStage.com

[mayhem83]

I support the LSPR comittee 100% on this issue. Even though it may not seem like it, my first concern is safety. This sport is not worth killing someone, which was a very real possiblility last year. My second concern is that we/I get to run the stage. This is THE stage I look forward to each year. I loved it when we got to run it twice but I understand why that isn't feasible. This solution seems like it will solve the problem without requiring more workers (which are not readily available). Thanks to all the LSPR organizers and workers that have found a good solution to a very real problem.

Mark Utecht

[Kevin D]

Finding extra marshals is one thing, finding a spot that is easy to get to and is worth watching is another.
Most spectators want to arrive at the last minute, watch the top guys and leave. Walking down the side of a hot stage is kind of dangerous.

[Flyboy]

>2. Marshals will be posted after the end of the stage at the
>intersection of Brockway Mountain Drive and M-26, only
>officially credentialed Press will be allowed into the end
>of the stage and the "jump". Unauthorized persons
>attempting to gain access to the stage may be ticketed and
>removed.

Cool, but here's an idea. Put in a couple controls and we'll race back down to M-26! As long as you're gonna go through the work to block off fun twisty road, might as well go the extra bit and let us race on it. Oh boy, can you imagine how much fun it would be racing DOWN the mountain. Even the P-class cars could get some big air going downhill. Whoa, stop salivating Dennis.....

Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845

[Mad Mike]

>Oh boy, can you imagine how much fun it would be racing DOWN the
>mountain. Even the P-class cars could get some big air going >downhill. Whoa, stop salivating Dennis.....

Ask Dillon if I wasn't wondering that very thing aloud during the transit that followed Brockway 2001 ...

That hairpin left a few tenths from the finish really would be a hot spectator spot - if you like your wrecks laced with the smell of burnt brakes!

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com

[john bathgate]

looks like the spectators are getting screwed again just like in tenn. well i can scratch lspr off my to see list this year.
we've all been cherokee trailed again!

[Mike Hurst]

Bathgate, do we owe you something? Is it our job to entertain you?

Don't be so simple.

[KScheible]

This is my favorite stage in North America, and believe me nothing jacks you up more than the spectators at the jumps. However, last year when I had people actually standing on the spot where I apex a corner then I think crowd control is necessary. I passed less than 6 feet from a lady pushing a baby in a stroller and I had to be going close to 100mph! The whole scene kind of reminded me of the old David Caridine movie "Death Race 2000".

At all costs Pro Rally needs to avoid an appearance on 60 minutes.

[Jerry Brownell]

There are other great places to spectate at LSPR. The Delaware Delta comes to mind immediately, plus there are a lot of points which are not designated spectator areas that are very reachable. I hate to see spectating at Brockway scrapped, too, and I do believe there is a way to do it more safely, but the nature of the stage (only one way in/out -- along the stage road) makes it tough. If you've ever been there to see the chaos, you would understand.

[t0940ds]

I'll be direct. The higher the speed, the more dangerous it is. To improve the safety, don't allow a tire change or service between the gravel stages and Brockway. SCCA has several series for people who like the high cornering forces that come with race tires; they take place on tracks with guardrail and gravel traps for good reasons.

[RobBohn]

Does anyone remember Michelle Mouton's quote after running the Group B Audi up Pike's Peak? It was something along the lines of:

"If all of you guys had REAL balls you'd race DOWN the hill."

She won the race up the hill!

Rob Bohn

>Cool, but here's an idea. Put in a couple controls and we'll
>race back down to M-26! As long as you're gonna go through
>the work to block off fun twisty road, might as well go the
>extra bit and let us race on it. Oh boy, can you imagine
>how much fun it would be racing DOWN the mountain. Even the
>P-class cars could get some big air going downhill. Whoa,
>stop salivating Dennis.....

[Mad Mike]

>I'll be direct. The higher the speed, the more dangerous it
>is. To improve the safety, don't allow a tire change or
>service between the gravel stages and Brockway. SCCA has
>several series for people who like the high cornering forces
>that come with race tires; they take place on tracks with
>guardrail and gravel traps for good reasons.

I'm 100% with Doug on this one. Question is, can things be arranged to keep the Copper Harbor service before Brockway (for safety's sake - better to send everyone onto tarmac with as solid a car as possible) but preclude the one after? Supps? A route from Brockway to Deleware that avoids Copper Harbor? A really tight transit? Mark the tires in the Brockway ATC and make sure the same marks are there at the Deleware ATC? Should someone insist on running race rubber up Brockway then let 'em run Deleware on the same tires ...

I know at least one entry that claimed a stage win (tie) running the same tires they started the rally on despite their adversary running wide, low-profile tarmac tires. ;-)

http://www.realautosport.com/pics/Beetle/LSPR/brockway.jpg

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com

[Mad Mike]

Rob Bohn said:
>"If all of you guys had REAL balls you'd race DOWN the
>hill."

I think it was more along the lines, 'Let's separate the men from the boys and race DOWN this sucker.'

http://www.realautosport.com/pics/moved/Michelle.jpg

Kind of an unfortunate sentiment since I fear that PR mess led to the 1986 collaboration between Bobby Unser and the baddest Quattro ever let loose in anger on gravel. Some members of this forum might share what the German-speaking Audi mechanics had to say about Bobby's car setup skills and/or driving ability that week. :o

http://www.realautosport.com/pics/PPIHC/wrohrl.jpg

PPIHC Rookie, Walter Rohrl, was kind enough to use the same car to lop HALF a MINUTE off Unser's overall record the following year - and simultaneously vanquish the three-car, Vatanen/Zanussi/Mehta-Mehta, Peugeot 205 team managed by then-future Ferrari F1 savior Jean Todt.

http://www.realautosport.com/pics/PPIHC/inside1.jpg

What a year to spend a week at the hillclimb!

http://www.realautosport.com/pics/PPIHC/87PPIHC.htm

But back to the thread!! Let's separate the men from the boys and race DOWN that Brockway Mountain sucker!

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com

[john bathgate]

I was in a hurry this morning, let me continue, they say only press allowed to the jump well i was at tenn and every tom dick and harry had a press cred. like anybody w/a web site and a line of ##### got a pass. then when i asked about it at the press reg. table the guy said well that only green vests could walk down a stage. so the next day i get out there and boom, every one w/a press pass roaming freely, me on the other hand stuck behind a fence. see i live in wellsboro so rally is in my blood. so yes u are there to entertain me, i support ur event by going to it spending my money and spreading the rally word. see i can drive on a dirt road every day as fast as i wish so u guys ripping through the woods is nothing new , i go for the near misses and the wrecks and the support i can give to any racer out there. like helping change a tire after a wreck, or handing over that last bottle of water i have to keep a co driver going.but to take the only tarmac stage in the us and make it so u can walk in only 1/2 mile! i might as well go to the local drag strip and watch them run if ur going to shut it off at the first turn. i travel to maine and the ppl and rally organizers are wonderful, they let spectators choose there spot and view, i think that the rally spectators of the past should step up to all the newbi rally fans and tell them hy ur to close or well thats not really a safe spot. dont just assume every one has common sense, but also dont assume they dont.i just feel that i was going to attend the Lspr but now after a very bad bitter taste in my mouth from tenn. im already debating on whether i want to go through the trouble of traveling 1200 or so miles and being herded behind a fence and watch polish rally.com ppl roam down the stage to a nice spot b/c they have some website!

[Bruce]

If you don't understand the issues involved here - and it's clear that you don't - please DON'T come to LSPR. It will make room for another spectator willing to enjoy the rally without risk to life and limb. With the stage and possibly a large chunk of the rally at risk, the organizers did what they had to.

A good place to watch doesn't have to be dangerous. Brockway was DANGEROUS last year. Comparing this to Cherokee Trails is idiotic. I was also at both places, and there was no comparison.

Bruce

[Bill W]

I can tell you one year, we wanted to find out once and for all what tires were better on Brockway. We ran once on racing tires and once on rally tires. We were faster with the rally tires by about 4-5 seconds. We ran rally tires every year after that. Point of note, we ran the rally tires first and the race tires second, so we had all the benifits for the second run.

But I am sure that the debate will rage on.

Bill Westrick
Available Co-Driver At Large
bwestrick@comcast.net

[allank]

I was at Brockway last year. Due to an early demise of a fuel pump I had the opportunity to spectate during the Sat competition.

Brockway was very scary w.r.t. spectator safety. I personally got a family with little kids out of the landing zone. The father came by after Patrick R. launched and said thank you very much as they all would have been dead.

Brockway is ne of my favorite stages to run and I hate to see the spectators denied the opportunity to watch a really great show, but being in the news because a family was wiped out by a rally car is NOT the way I would like to promote our sport.

As Kevin stated, If we are to run Brockway at all, then this is what we have to do. Fine by me.

I am also quite sure that Kevin and Co. are working on a plan for subsiquent years to allow spectating at Brockway for everyone. Right now we don't have the resources to handle it.

-al

[Greg Donovan]

i was at the mt. too last year and what began as a safe place to be ended up being much closer than anticipated due to being pushed out of the way. i asked people to move back but got the "who the hell do you think you are" look from everyone w/in earshot. we then moved and could barely see but were safe. that was really frustrating. we did get a good pic of pat but that was due to a really good zoom lens and dumb luck.
my question is why not let everyone in still but close the stage 45 min. before zero and give everyone 15 min to get into place and make them stay untill sweep goes by. and as someone pointed out have a marshall w/waivers, armbands and vests to enlist people like myself who have marshalled before at other events but was unable to work this one because i was crewing untill mr niday and mr kintigh lost the fuel pump and turned us into a bunch of spectators. we must do whatever it takes to allow this stage and rally to continue. there is enough time in the schedule to watch the first 15-20 at the delta and still make it to the mt. 45 min early if you hustle and carpool. there should be at least 10 vested marshalls at the bug yump and all should be equiped w/megaphones and tough mindset.
greg donovan

[Eric Seppanen]

Spectators get more and more irresponsible every time. Is it any surprise that one of the greatest spots is now going to be off limits? It's not as though they're doing this out of spite, they're doing it because safety got completely out of hand.

Hey, now that everyone realizes how much they miss it, maybe someone has an idea on how the spectator spot could be resurrected? If not for this year, then maybe 2003...?

Here's my idea: get a bus company and a security company, and tell them they can split a per-person entry fee if they take care of hauling everyone to the top, keeping them in the safe areas, and bringing them back down.

Or maybe a group of hardcore spectators will take it upon themselves to organize a "Brockway Spectator Club", and organize transport and security themselves to a level that will satisfy the LSPR organizers.

[wahl]

(Insert low whistle here)

Well there are going to be tons of really annoyed spectators,
but I, for one, want to see it cleaned up. However I did
like running it twice. ah well.

Ed

[patr]

I feel like I should say something one this - I wrote a letter to the PRB about Brockway but I think it was misunderstood. The issue IS NOT the spectators - it is the stage.

Removing the people still isn't going to make it safer. As a driver in the car (it is a rally after all) you are supposed to get the most speed out of the stage posssible. A jump like th eone on Brockway is just plain stupid. You may say "slow down' but it is a race. It is possible to do it flat out. but one time out of 10, someone is gong to fall off the cliff (assuming now, with notes, people will take it even faster). The average speed for that stage was something like 89 mph. I'm just saying that you can remove spectators, but if you dont put in a chicane, someone is going to get hurt there, someday.

The only proper solution is to put in a chicane at the bottom of the hill. That way, no one is going to hit it at 100+ mph. And that way you can still have spectators.

I'm not interested in records and stuff, and people who say "you should just slow down for it..." well, it is a rally, and if you know it is possible to make it, you play the odds. That is rally. You may say "it is your choice etc." but the point is, the true decisions are hard ones, and a hard one is to "wreck" the jump, but jumps like that only serve one purpose, and that is to wreck cars.

[saywhat]

I think that Pat is on the right track here, a chicane or two would be a better idea (hay bales and penalties). There is a need to slow the speed over the lift off. There is also a need for spectators, if we want to have sponsors. To think that people won't sneak in to the jump would be rather naive even if it is well controlled.
Spectators nautrally want to see a car jump so give them what they want. It might be a good idea in the future to make it an offical spectator point with more marshals and banners, with chicanes to slow the car speeds. Just a point of view.;)

[Kevin D]

A letter to the organizers would have done more good. With any concern a letter to the PRB is good, but it would help to send a copy to those that can implement the change.

[mgpsmith]

Gee Mike, here's another simple answer....

We started Brockway something like 5823rd on the road, so by the time we got to the yump, JB and Al were about the only spectators. ( http://www.rhybudd.com/LSPR2k1PatMunits.jpg )
Not much danger of an airborn british car hitting a spectator.

SO...

Just make everybody start way back in the pack.

Hmmmm....

[Mike Hurst]

>
I do agree with the idea of a chicane, but the spectator problem extended down the mountain, way before the jump.

Pat was one of the first up the stage, most spectators had taken up stationary positions. I was the first Club car up the road and many were walking out.

When I came up the 1st hill (at 100+) the spectators were walking down the hill, on the road, on both sides as I went between them. There were spectators on the tarmac at the apex of corners, forcing me to change my line, and in the imapct zones on the outside of corners.

[Timmerman_Paul]

This is a great thread. This is the big issue, and perhaps the
best case in the US for crowd control. I have a _few_ more
thoughts on spectator areas.

Almost all rally spectators are intellegent, but we have to protect
everyone, including the worst case idiot, who may or may not show up.

Walking up a hot stage cannot be allowed, you can't hand out quiz forms to judge peoples rally IQ.

Having a right to go where ever you want is a backwards idea, lose it.

Every rally will have locals that think they own the roads

Law enforcement presence at each area makes a big difference.

Working ahead of time with locals with a _history_ is effective.

Allowing early bird access to areas is OK if they are all informed
they will have to stay til the last car.

Controlled areas with solid workable plans is necessary.

Training up a big batch of specatator marshals can be done.

If you count the boy scouts at Rim I had over 40 people working
just on spectator areas. We needed more, but we grew very
significantly in only one year.

Offering multiple areas helps eliminate overcrowding one overused area.

Design locations that are mutually exclusive, "I can see A _or_ B,
but not both"

Controlling speeding by teams and support is just as important.

Good luck and keep us all safe!

Paul Timmerman
2002 Rim Chief of Spectator Areas

[Lurch]

A few comments...

First of all...Thanks Kevin, Lyn, et al for keeping the stage alive. It is a part of the heritage of the event of LSPR now. It is also apparently the favorite stage of many rallyists (myself included).

I find it interesting that NO ONE even came close to flying as far as Pat did on that jump. I don't think anyone flew over half his distance. While he says "you play the odds" and "the true decisions are hard ones," I just find it interesting that no one else made the decision or played those odds to push that hard on that particular piece of road.

I'm not trying to put Pat down here. I'm not even saying that the course couldn't use a chicane at the bottom (I've always hit it at top speed, but my cars weren't as fast as most, so I don't really know what it needs now, do I?) I just find it interesting...

I am against mandating gravel tires on the road...just think I would feel safer on tarmac tires knowing how unpredictable gravel tiresI feel around town.

The rally is going through growing pains and the organizers are doing all they can to make it safer for spectators. I bet there were old spectators who used to watch the races on the sand at Daytona, and were later made to sit behind a cement wall and fence. I'll bet they bitched too.